Another Perkins Pukes

[DGODGR]

W

I ain't blowed up the one in my ASV RC30 yet... 2500 hours and counting (knock on wood), alls I have done is change the oil, about 1x a year, fuel filter and non pressure hose on the fuel intake, and year afore last, I had the top gasket on the inj pump spring a leak, so I pulled the pump, and had it rebuilt. Motor on mine is a cat 3013 A/R 177-4706, serial#4xd00805. same motor as a Perkins 403d15, AFAIK... I am the only operator, so maybe that makes the difference...

Which motor is the Cat 3013? I've never heard of that one.

 

[DGODGR]

1) My engine is a 3024C with a turbo
2) My neighbor had a 170 New Holland with the same motor that had the oil passage burst on the outside of the motor and lost oil and locked up.
3) My engine had CAT in real big letters, Perkins in small letters and Shibaura in tiny letters I could hardly see. My engine was made by Shibaura (N844LT} as was the New Holland 170.
4) Mine was a later motor, as it was replaced at 500 hrs.
5) My oil tube had a washer welded on it and had no problem with the tube. I know of 3 people in my small area with Cat skid steers that had the oil pump break and ruin their motors with less than 1000 hrs.
6) I think the head gasket problem has been fixed with a better quality gasket. If the oil gets really dirty and has blow by, I will pull the head. The breather tube coming loose from the turbo can be checked daily. I don't know what to do about the oil pump breaking.
7) I am trying to fix my motor myself. One neighbor spent over 12000.00 on getting his fixed.
8) I am going to use Maxiforce parts on mine. I am getting mine from a machine shop, but Ebay has them.
9) I haven't got mine fixed yet.
10) I have been running tractors since I was 10 years old and have some that I have more than 10,000 hours on with almost no problems.

What machine is this motor from? Shibaura is a new name for me. Is this another name for the Mitsubishi? Which machine was your engine in?

I'm also wondering how we went from Perkins to Mitsubishi (and now Kubota). I am aware that Cat has owned Perkins for some time. In fact I have a 3054 (in a Cat 416C) with over 12,000 hours on it. This is a Perkins engine (made for Cat with Cat logos on it). I ma ls aware of Cat having, at least, some ownership in Mitsubishi but cant see how the engines in question were branded Mitsubishi when they are Perkins. Someone please shed some light.

 

[walkerv]

What machine is this motor from? Shibaura is a new name for me. Is this another name for the Mitsubishi? Which machine was your engine in?

I'm also wondering how we went from Perkins to Mitsubishi (and now Kubota). I am aware that Cat has owned Perkins for some time. In fact I have a 3054 (in a Cat 416C) with over 12,000 hours on it. This is a Perkins engine (made for Cat with Cat logos on it). I ma ls aware of Cat having, at least, some ownership in Mitsubishi but cant see how the engines in question were branded Mitsubishi when they are Perkins. Someone please shed some light.

Shibaura is an old name i have only seen it once before on the hobby farm i used to take care off , we had a prototype plaqued 1973 ford 1000 tractor and that little 2 cylinder was made by them i think ford used that engine till early 80's , only reason we had it rebuilt is previous caretakers liked ether. glow plugs had failed and it wound up having 4 out of 6 compression rings cracked. im curious on the mitsubishi also i remember a few small cat equipment peices having them in it most were perkins i was not aware of when the kubota switch happened .

 

[rwoody]

it was a 3024 non turbo sir

 

[John C.]

DGODGR,
The point of my post is that what you are asking for is a compilation and interpretation of info concerning certain types of engine. That is a whole lot of work to ask someone to do "voluntarily". If you have a question about a certain type of engine you can run a word search and usually find any info put forth on here. If you wanted to do that and compile the information for all to see it would be appreciated by all.

As to the issue of a manufacturer trying to shut down information on this and other sites you might ask some of the coordinators about a manufacturer that claimed copyright infringement for posting diagnostic information on one of their machines.

I can tell you from personal experience there were lots of problems with the Perkins/Cat engines installed in the small frame skid steers, 216 size. Cat knew about the issues and alerted the dealerships with fix as fail statements. I have seen those models of engines last over 6,000 hours with no problems also. The difference from my perspective was that the oils were changed at 250 hour intervals instead of the factory recommended 500 hours. There was also some speculation of the PCV systems dumping contaminates back into the air intake systems causing premature wear rates on the rings, pistons and cylinder walls. I'm not aware of the Mitsubishi engines being installed in the smaller Cat skid steers at all. Kubota engines were installed in the last few years on machines sold in this area. The Mitsubishi engines were installed in the mini excavators all along and I know of no consistent issues that could be blamed on manufacturer's defect in materials or workmanship.

 

[Cmark]

The Cat/Perkins and Cat/Mitsubishi lines are and always have been completely different. Because the Mitsubishi partnership was never really publicised, for a long time ony people "in the trade" were aware of it and the public assumed that they were Cat engines. I think the confusion arises because Cat made a big public deal out of their acquisition of Perkins, so now someone will open an engine compartment, see a small yellow engine with a Cat badge and go "Oh yeh, one of those sh!tty Perkins things" and leave it at that.

The Mitsys have been around for a long time and I think are a good reliable lump, and the Kubotas look to be shaping up pretty good as well.

 

[Birken Vogt]

W

Which motor is the Cat 3013? I've never heard of that one.

I have never seen one of these with the Cat 3013 badge on them but I have seen them with the Cat 30x4x sticker and lots with Perkins and lots with Shibaura.

Here is my take on it. IHI Shibaura has been making this basic engine since the 80s or maybe the 70s. It seemed like a solid platform, have a few still running from that time frame.

At some point Perkins needed a smaller engine than they built themselves so they started to buy and/or license build the Shibaura engine.

Then at some point before or after this Caterpillar corp. took full control of Perkins corp. and so if Cat needs an engine this small they just source it from their subsidiary and change the paint color and put a different label on it.

Perkins model number is 40wx-yy where w is number of cylinders, x is a letter where D is the current series and C was last built some time ago, yy is the displacement with no decimal point so 11 is 1.1L, 15 is 1.5 and 22 2.2 the most common.

Cmark, what about Kubota engines, have not heard about them yet.

 

[fasteddie]

Shibaura is a Chinese engine company that built the Cat engines that give all the trouble. I talked with a Maxiforce rep about parts and he said all the 3024 engines were made in China by Shibaura. My engine had this written on it in tiny letters. The big print gives and the little print taketh away. We put the engine in the hot tank and wiped out all the printing. Ebay has turbos listed for them and has the Cat name and says they are Shibaura engines.

 

[Birken Vogt]

Correction. Shibaura is a Japanese company, in fact it is the city in Japan. IHI is their other name and you will find their turbochargers on many different brands.

However, most of the Perkins/whatever brand we have been discussing here, that I have seen, have been built in a factory in Wuxi, China for at least the last 10 years.

 

[Cmark]

What machine is this motor from? Shibaura is a new name for me. Is this another name for the Mitsubishi? Which machine was your engine in?

I'm also wondering how we went from Perkins to Mitsubishi (and now Kubota). I am aware that Cat has owned Perkins for some time. In fact I have a 3054 (in a Cat 416C) with over 12,000 hours on it. This is a Perkins engine (made for Cat with Cat logos on it). I ma ls aware of Cat having, at least, some ownership in Mitsubishi but cant see how the engines in question were branded Mitsubishi when they are Perkins. Someone please shed some light.

3013 and 3024 are three and four cylinder versions from the Perkins 400 series. The 3054 is from the 1000 series and totally different. It's the 400 series which had a high failure rate in the early days. The ones that I've been involved with had failures caused by oil pump problems.

 

[Cmark]

Cmark, what about Kubota engines, have not heard about them yet.

Small, emissions controlled engines which, so far, I've seen in the bigger D series skid steers and E series HEXs of around the 8T size. Quiet, reliable and leak-free so far.

 

[Cmark]

More information here;

https://www.caterpillar.com/en/company/global-footprint/apd/china.html

 

[Welder Dave]

I've heard a Shibaura is similar to a Perkins (original Perkins) or possibly a Perkins built under license. Ford used them in their skid steers that were made by Thomas in the 80's. Obviously Ford didn't want to sell machines with Kubota engines. Interestingly enough Case made the 1838 with a Kubota engine because users really liked the Kubota's in other brands of skid steers.

 

[Birken Vogt]

It is the other way around, the engines from the 80s were Shibaura only and then Perkins started to buy them and put their name on them but the pedigree is obvious when you look at the engine. The Perkins front cover is different and the injection pump is a little different but the rest of the engine is almost identical to the classic Shibaura. Also Perkins put the classic English CAV fuel filter and pump on it, not a fan of them but it is what it is.

 

[thepumpguysc]

WHAT!!?? NOT a fan of the CAV pump?? are you some kinda Commie?? Lol
Those pumps are the simplest, sophisticated inj. pumps ever made.. & will run, + or - a bucket of dirt..
Now the plumbing was a weak spot. but the inj. pump itself was & still is, a masterpiece of simplicity.. IMO

as to the other posts about mergers, Cat & Perkins STILL have their battles.. weather you call them>
Perkapillars or Cat-a-Perks.. when it comes down to diagnostic computer work, the systems STILL wont talk to each other.. & neither will the guy on the phone, when you call their hot-line about tech. questions.. lol
All you get is> that's a stupid Perkins problem, WE don't support THAT.. So you call Perkins & get the SAME THING, just turned around.. its a nitemare from a mechanics stand point... when all YOU WANT to do is HELP a customer & keep "their" product on the market.. running preferably..
BTW> that last sentence goes A LONG WAY when talking to a technical hot-line..
"hey buddy, you might have told that to the last 49 people you talked to but>> ALL I WANT to do is.. bla bla bla... & KEEP YOUR PRODUCT on the market".. & "maybe" we can ALL have a job..

 

[Birken Vogt]

I don't have anything against the CAV pump. But I see precious few of them. Mostly on real old stuff. In my market (generators) the old stuff gets cycled out for the most part.

Actually the Cat/Perkins/Shibaura have 3- and 4-cylinder PFR pumps driven off the cam shaft. What Perkins did when they bought the platform was to keep the pump more or less the same but change all the plumbing over to the CAV style. That is what I don't like, the filter with the silly bolt through it mainly. Straight out of 1960. The Shibauras had a spin-on and they thought the other one was an improvement somehow.

 

[fasteddie]

I don't have anything against the CAV pump. But I see precious few of them. Mostly on real old stuff. In my market (generators) the old stuff gets cycled out for the most part.

Actually the Cat/Perkins/Shibaura have 3- and 4-cylinder PFR pumps driven off the cam shaft. What Perkins did when they bought the platform was to keep the pump more or less the same but change all the plumbing over to the CAV style. That is what I don't like, the filter with the silly bolt through it mainly. Straight out of 1960. The Shibauras had a spin-on and they thought the other one was an improvement somehow.

My pump looks like a little Bosh P pump and is driven by four lobes on the engine cam shaft and has a spin on Cat filter mounted on the skid steer. The crank on this engine comes out the rear end of the block.
I still have a MF tractor from the early 1970s with a 4203 Perkins with the old style filters and CAV pump. It always started good. I thought a Perkins would be good for a long time. I didn't understand it was not really a Perkins. A Shibaura N844LT is the same as a Perkins 404 C-22 and a Cat 3024 CT. I found several pictures on the web of these engines.
I don't know my serial number because the lye tank took all the numbers off the motor. I may have written it down, but haven't found it yet.

 

[fasteddie]

Correction. Shibaura is a Japanese company, in fact it is the city in Japan. IHI is their other name and you will find their turbochargers on many different brands.

However, most of the Perkins/whatever brand we have been discussing here, that I have seen, have been built in a factory in Wuxi, China for at least the last 10 years.

I am sorry, I saw a tag that said made in China on a Shibaura and thought they were a Chinese company.

 

[AusDave]

Shibaura is a Japanese company that makes mainly small machinery such as tractors and ride on mowers. They do a decent Diesel engine and a lot of small machines from Massey Ferguson and New Holland are rebadged Shibaura machines. I think the problematic Perkins motors were built in China with pretty poor quality control by whoever owned Perkins at that time.
Like many things made in China you can have something made really cheap or really good, choose which one you want.
AusDave

 

[mountainlake]

Seems like after Cat took over Perkins the trouble started , never heard of much trouble with Perkins before that, farmers loved them. Steve