• Thank you for visiting HeavyEquipmentForums.com! Our objective is to provide industry professionals a place to gather to exchange questions, answers and ideas. We welcome you to register using the "Register" icon at the top of the page. We'd appreciate any help you can offer in spreading the word of our new site. The more members that join, the bigger resource for all to enjoy. Thank you!

Cat 12G horsepower upgrade or other options

JAJ

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 22, 2022
Messages
183
Location
Australia
Occupation
Owner operator of small fleet
Are you going to run the old tyres out on the front axle.?
Yes that is my plan. I have old bias-ply ones on the front at the moment so they might stay there for the moment and keep the others in reserve. Like Queenslander said about the puncture risk I might keep the radials for road work. I feel I can get along a bit quicker with radials... less bounce?? I am not the worlds most experienced operator so I might be imagining it too. If you get everything set right there probably isn't much difference

I also found some bald 28ply ex mining tyres at a shop that was selling them for $100 each (haven't seen them in person. They could be candidates for bush work on the front too, especially for my old 12E grader.
 

JAJ

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 22, 2022
Messages
183
Location
Australia
Occupation
Owner operator of small fleet
View attachment 289614View attachment 289615
We do similar practices here but we use dozers to build ours. Looks like our slopes are steeper. Most are built to hold anywhere between 2ft-4ft of water.
Yeah looks like the same idea just hold lots more. Here they make some bigger banks with a dozer or loader but most of those are to block off an erosion gullys and control the diverted water where there is more pressure. I asked about more depth and it has been tested but our soil didn't like it in a lot of cases apparently. We are semi-arid/ arid where we are and it wasn't used to so much water. The 100mm/4in gives the best return on investment as far as we know here. They are keen to keep testing ideas though.
There are some youtube videos of the government department guy that is the main bloke that does the planning of it (near me) and has been teaching and mentoring me on the planning side of things. If your interested I could post the link?

We are doing the surveying (still under guidance at this stage), construction and drone monitoring of the project. Its the first time they have had one contractor do the whole lot so we are working a lot of things out as we go, almost 2/3 of the way through the first run of projects and everyone is very happy so far.
 

JAJ

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 22, 2022
Messages
183
Location
Australia
Occupation
Owner operator of small fleet
Where abouts are you located JAJ?
I’ve got a set of Double Coin radials, with similar wear to those Mitchys, that you could have at the right price.
We also have a 12G, along with a 140H, and do a lot of bush work as well as council road maintenance.
We gave the radials away years ago for the bush work due to stakes etc. and went to a 24 ply BKT.
Might seem a bit extravagant, but on the 140H, we have two sets of rims, one 17.5 with Mitch. radials for the road work and another with 14.00 BKTs for the bush.
This was the first set we bought 12 years ago… just fitted our third set the other day and not a single stake in all that time
I’m based between Wanaaring and Tibooburra in NSW. What about you?

That idea with swapping tyres for bush work is a good one. Those BKT’s look like a great idea. My 12E is going to need a set of drive tyres soon too, they would be ideal for it, it only does bush work and they would be a lot better than the tractor pattern ones!

I’d love that front blade you have too!!
 

JAJ

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 22, 2022
Messages
183
Location
Australia
Occupation
Owner operator of small fleet
Bam1968, that looks like an area of Iowa that we hunt. JAJ, how did you do the air conditioning on a 12G?
My air con was fitted at the factory when it was ordered. Some guys here put roof mounted systems with an engine driven compressor as a retro fit. REDDot brand seem to be the most common of those setups.

On my old 12E I put a fully self contained 24v roof mounted truck cooler. The compressors are run from 24v so only need to run cables to the batteries. Put one on my 966C loader first. They work ok… drop the air temp at the vent by around 10*C which is pretty awesome compared to nothing in summer. Not in the same league as engine driven compressor systems but I think it’s nice and easy on old machines.
 

Queenslander

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 5, 2009
Messages
1,255
Location
Australia
Iam north of Chinchilla, so a fair hike from Tibooburra, but then, Tibooburra is a fair hike from anywhere.
Send a PM if you’re interested in the Double Coins, I don’t want much for them.
Two that were on the front would be 75%..the other four might be 50%.
I can even throw in four of the old BKTs…not much tread but sound cases.
 
  • Like
Reactions: JAJ

bam1968

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 1, 2014
Messages
534
Location
IA
Occupation
Excavating Contractor
Bam1968, that looks like an area of Iowa that we hunt. JAJ, how did you do the air conditioning on a 12G?
I'm just little ways east of omaha. Alot of southwest iowa looks the same.
 

Razorsedge2003

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 27, 2016
Messages
81
Location
Fowlerville, MI
My air con was fitted at the factory when it was ordered. Some guys here put roof mounted systems with an engine driven compressor as a retro fit. REDDot brand seem to be the most common of those setups.

On my old 12E I put a fully self contained 24v roof mounted truck cooler. The compressors are run from 24v so only need to run cables to the batteries. Put one on my 966C loader first. They work ok… drop the air temp at the vent by around 10*C which is pretty awesome compared to nothing in summer. Not in the same league as engine driven compressor systems but I think it’s nice and easy on old machines.
I’ve looked at the red dot online. Either rig up a bracket for an engine/belt driven or go with hydraulic driven somehow.
 

Razorsedge2003

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 27, 2016
Messages
81
Location
Fowlerville, MI
We got off topic on this one also! I bet if you had a good pyrometer and exhaust and boost gauges, you could safely turbo and turn up the fuel on these. We run a couple pulling tractors and you would be surprised how much heat a diesel can take before melting things.
 

OzDozer

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 18, 2007
Messages
2,207
Location
Perth, Western Australia.
Occupation
Semi-Retired ..
JAJ, the major area you're up against, is the operating weight of your 12G. If you boost the HP, you will find you'll only produce more wheelspin - or you'll find the weak parts in the drivetrain.

Drive chains and axles are probably the weak points of the Cat graders - although some of the transmission gears, such as planetary ring gears would also fail with a HP boost.
The 3306 can produce a lot more power, but the grader drivetrain is not built to handle a major HP increase.

The only thing to do if you need more "grunt", is to trade up to a heavier, higher HP grader - you'll find the extra weight and increased HP is a real eye-opener.

I ran an old knuckle-buster Cat 12E in the 1980's, and then moved up to a Cat 14E (72G series, rigid frame, powershift).
The difference between 115HP and 150HP was remarkable - but the additional few tonnes of operating weight was what gave the 14E a tremendous advantage when it came to bulk dirt-shifting when throwing up big banks.

I used to build a lot of "contour banks", these were steady-fall banks built on the contour to carry away excess water and to stop erosion, and they needed a heavy grader to throw them up.

My 14E also ran 17.5-25 tyres, this made a huge difference in getting power to the ground.
 

JAJ

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 22, 2022
Messages
183
Location
Australia
Occupation
Owner operator of small fleet
JAJ, the major area you're up against, is the operating weight of your 12G. If you boost the HP, you will find you'll only produce more wheelspin - or you'll find the weak parts in the drivetrain.

Drive chains and axles are probably the weak points of the Cat graders - although some of the transmission gears, such as planetary ring gears would also fail with a HP boost.
The 3306 can produce a lot more power, but the grader drivetrain is not built to handle a major HP increase.

The only thing to do if you need more "grunt", is to trade up to a heavier, higher HP grader - you'll find the extra weight and increased HP is a real eye-opener.

I ran an old knuckle-buster Cat 12E in the 1980's, and then moved up to a Cat 14E (72G series, rigid frame, powershift).
The difference between 115HP and 150HP was remarkable - but the additional few tonnes of operating weight was what gave the 14E a tremendous advantage when it came to bulk dirt-shifting when throwing up big banks.

I used to build a lot of "contour banks", these were steady-fall banks built on the contour to carry away excess water and to stop erosion, and they needed a heavy grader to throw them up.

My 14E also ran 17.5-25 tyres, this made a huge difference in getting power to the ground.
Hi OzDozer.
Thanks heaps for joining in on the discussion!! Its greatly appreciated and that goes to everyone else too that has joined in. Sorry for the slow reply.

Your experience going from the 12E up to the 14E is very interesting. I totally agree with everything you said, if I had more Hp with my current set up (especially the 1400-24 tires) weight would definitely be the limiting factor. It already accounts for the majority of my challenges.

What gave me the idea that I could go up a little bit more safely (non turbo) was I am sure I have seen a spec brochure some where that showed a special application/market spec 140G that was non turbo and still 150Hp. I cant find it again though.
I thought the only real difference between the 12G and the 140G was the turbo engine and usually setup with a 14ft blade. I know going from 135Hp to 150Hp doesn't sound like much of a jump to most people but I think it would make a noticeable difference. I think anything over 150Hp would be mostly a waste especially in gears 1-3. I couldn't believe the 140H with skinny tires that i drove didn't feel much more powerful than my 12G while trying to move lots of dirt, I know the 14ft blade makes a difference but it sure showed that more power is useless if you cant get it to the ground. A bit more power might help me out till I find a good upgrade, but upgrading to a bigger a machine would be much better all round and probably better putting the effort into finding that instead.

That brings me to the next question.... what to upgrade to? A bigger G, a bigger H or John Deere perhaps?? A cat with a version of a 3306 would be my preference (what I have in other machines and what I know) but open to any ideas.
Graders are pretty expensive for the age of what I am looking for at the moment so it will be a waiting game for the right machine.

Nige suggested a 140H or 143H (with wide tires). I haven't had anything to do with AWD but it sounds great. A bit more complex so more maintenance perhaps?

I think i would be waiting a while for a nice 160H to come up, but they have the added benefit of being heavier again, more Hp and a taller blade (27in over 24in). As a side note the blade height advantage might be easy to fix.. on my old 12E someone got excited in its previous life and welded a 4in extension ontop of the blade. Not sure if this would work with clearance on the more modern machines.

Then there is the 14G/H but i wonder if they would be too big to be useful for normal work like road maintenance ect??

Thanks again everyone for your thoughts and opinions.
 

pedrocar

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 25, 2016
Messages
110
Location
australia
Occupation
grader operator
12G ,140G basically same machine ,I've got a 12 with a 3306 turbo motor out to 185hp run a 14ft blade transmissions are the same all the drive line also mines done 18 thousand hours like this trans has done 27k no problems
 

Jonas302

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 4, 2015
Messages
1,200
Location
mn
One interesting note when you mentioned power vs traction weight the 140g with variable horsepower cut the power down in the lower gears not sure if the H does that they have always felt stronger than a G to me
 
  • Like
Reactions: JAJ

JAJ

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 22, 2022
Messages
183
Location
Australia
Occupation
Owner operator of small fleet
12G ,140G basically same machine ,I've got a 12 with a 3306 turbo motor out to 185hp run a 14ft blade transmissions are the same all the drive line also mines done 18 thousand hours like this trans has done 27k no problems
Did you add the turbo? If so what else had to be changed?
Or did you swap motors?
Very interesting post!!! Thank you.
Great to know it’s done a heap of hours and no dramas too.

It is a bit wet on the job here and the clay is sticky enough in a few spots that it won’t roll properly. I got the shits with it a couple days ago (didn’t sound like it was reving enough) and went to do some investigations. I found I didn’t have the correct tools to adjust the rack but I found there was enough play in the linkages for the governor it wasn’t going all the way to the high revs stop in the pump. Adjusted this and that small bit made a huge difference. It’ll be interesting to see the change in fuel burn now. Might help work out if it has already been turned up some?.
 

JAJ

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 22, 2022
Messages
183
Location
Australia
Occupation
Owner operator of small fleet
One interesting note when you mentioned power vs traction weight the 140g with variable horsepower cut the power down in the lower gears not sure if the H does that they have always felt stronger than a G to me
Yeah they have VHp as well. The mate I have with the 140G, H and M says that the H feels stronger than the others. He said the M felt like the weight of the G on his truck when he picked it up. After they added a roller on the rippers (almost 2t counterweight) the M will match the H. This is interesting because the spec sheets say the M is supposed to be heavier… must be the balance of the machine perhaps.
 

.RC.

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 27, 2012
Messages
794
Location
Central Qld, Australia
It would be easier to prove the existence of a god then try to understand the cat grader numbering system.

In saying that I have seen a 130G turned into a 140G by removing the 3304 and shoe horning a 3306 into it.

This farming operation does contracting with their earthmoving equipment and use their big Deere grader for bank shaping. They just did the transmission on it after an odd noise was heard.

We have a little 670A grader and do make small banks with it, but it is a lot of work to shift dirt with a light grader.
 

Blue-Fox

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 27, 2022
Messages
159
Location
99611
Occupation
Oilfield Owner/Operator
Yeah they have VHp as well. The mate I have with the 140G, H and M says that the H feels stronger than the others. He said the M felt like the weight of the G on his truck when he picked it up. After they added a roller on the rippers (almost 2t counterweight) the M will match the H. This is interesting because the spec sheets say the M is supposed to be heavier… must be the balance of the machine perhaps.
While I think the 160 is a great all around combo, its still a lighter 12 class chassis. They work great for road maintenance because they fit on the narrow roads, where a 14 gets too big. But The 14 class machine is really your best combo for ditching and banking and heavy material moving.

Ive got a pair of early 12G 61M's with 14' mb - that spent most of their life as a road / runway maintainer. Summer times will move a big bunch of dirt. We do move tons of heavy wet snow with a 12' snow wing. (I have wanted to 966C config Turbo /pump these since I was a teenager) but was a huge step up from the 12/F's we ran for decades before. Our local Govt Road agency decided they wanted to force upgrade of the contractors machinery (lots of 12E/F and 14E machines in use, until about 1995) They implemented a minimum requirement of 150hp. Put a bid incentive for higher HP and more weight, and newer year model to give a bid preference of scoring percent. The most bought 140's to get into the pack. To the best of my memory CAT came to our shop and ajusted the racks, pumps etc and certified them as 150 hp. We carried on, still running today.

A couple of things to keep in mind: The 17.5-25 tires are shorter than the 14-24 - better torque.
The radials grip better, but are twice the weight - and its noticable on the lower powered machines
Running lower tire PSI will increase the footprint and traction. Too stiff a PLY rating will not hook up and are miserable to work in soft ground.
If you're spinning them too much even with lower PSI, try some chains?
If you cant justify a newer Cat, maybe look around for a 740-780 Champion in the series 3,4,5. They were about 220-250 hp and will move some dirt. I never thought I could say that but its the truth.

I got an 872 Deere and wow what a big difference in power and work capability. Never had a Deere grader but this thing changed my mind about them.
 

JAJ

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 22, 2022
Messages
183
Location
Australia
Occupation
Owner operator of small fleet
Haven’t been back here for a while, so thank you to all the reply’s
I may have found a 140H series 2… still looking for a 14. What do people think of the series 2 H with the 3176 engine?
I have been looking for a 3306 engine if I stay cat but they are getting harder to find! If I had to go to a series 2 H, would I be better just going straight to an M series?? The computers and wires everywhere in the front end in the M scare me for where we live and work but there is no way around that if you can’t find an older H with low hours I suppose.

The John Deere graders look very interesting too. A 770G or GP looks to be a big jump on paper from a 140 Cat. Even the 672G might be better suited?
 

Queenslander

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 5, 2009
Messages
1,255
Location
Australia
  • Like
Reactions: JAJ

Queenslander

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 5, 2009
Messages
1,255
Location
Australia
Well, I knew that the H series graders were holding their value very well but this is crazy.
Auction is done and dusted but I snapped these screen shots with winning bids.
IMG_4250.jpeg
IMG_4249.jpeg
 
  • Like
Reactions: JAJ
Top