Cat vs Volvo vs Link-Belt vs Komatsu vs Kobelco

[Ford LT-9000]

In the rural areas of B.C. a guy has to stick with a common brand because there is more dealer support. Deere-Komatsu and Cat are the only brands with service mechanics that work in the area. Get the odd ball brands like Hyundia (sp) Kobelco etc there isn't much dealer support.

With Hitachi dominating the market so long parts availability is pretty good. Komatsu comes in second and Cat is mixed in with the other brands.

Also when your in a rural area preventative maintenance is key if you see a part that is starting to fail you order the part and have it ready to go. Can't wait till it breaks or your out of business for a couple days to week or maybe 2 weeks. Dealer mechanics are busy you need to book a appointment.

 

[Wulf]

Catch 22

In the rural areas of B.C. a guy has to stick with a common brand because there is more dealer support. Deere-Komatsu and Cat are the only brands with service mechanics that work in the area. Get the odd ball brands like Hyundia (sp) Kobelco etc there isn't much dealer support

That's an interesting point... from the dealer side the only way you can justify having a resident mechanic if there is a machine population... the only way to get machine population is to have a mechanic in the territory, mind you if they are busy like you say the dealers are making plenty of money... either warranty dolllars or service revenue

 

[John C.]

I've never seen anyone make any money on warranty repairs. Manufacturer's don't pay travel and mileage and only pay what they want for the actual repair. If the machine was any good to start with they wouldn't need a resident mechanic for at least a couple a thousand hours of use. The fact that things go wrong so often leaves the manufacturing process and distribution system in question.

That's why I always recommend getting all the lies in writing before you sign on the dotted line.

 

[Ford LT-9000]

The dealer mechanics are here for the mines they are perminant mechanics for the mines they do the maintenance on the equipment. So the two resident mechanics is a Cat mechanic which finally moved back to the area and a Komatsu mechanic the Deere mechanic is also in the area. Seeing the Volvo mechanic around these parts too with the mines using Volvo articulated trucks. Keep in mind the equipment in the gravel mines is going 20 hours a day 5 days a week so those machines need attention. Forestry operations go 10 hours a day 5 days a week.

The excavation contractors are a different story they are not running 10 hour days a machine might work 7 hours a day. Excavation contractors don't need the dealer mechanic as much. Most excavation contractors do their own work on their equipment anyways the only time a dealer mechanic works on the machine if its a warrenty issue or its something with the engine or electronics.

 

[surfer-joe]

Right on, John C!

 

[Wulf]

I've never seen anyone make any money on warranty repairs. Manufacturer's don't pay travel and mileage and only pay what they want for the actual repair.

I'm curious about this John, because I know that Komatsu does pay mileage (no travel time) and actual repair time is based on published flat-rate. The dealer also makes about 10% on the parts.

I recall hearing that Vovo CE didn't pay travel or labor at all which means every repair you would lose your shorts (unless compensated another way)?

Does anyone know what Cat, Deere and others policies are?

 

[Squizzy246B]

Hey Wulf, down here Cat cover the works in the first 6 months, travel, everything, even transporting the machine has been covered in some cases. In the 2nd six months its parts and labour but not travel...you just pay the km's. For the next 2 years its drivetrain parts and lablour only.

 

[surfer-joe]

Generally speaking, here in the states, Cat won't pay travel time, mileage, or transport. Komatsu and Deere won't either.

If you are a Kiewit or a Washington, it's different story. They have the size and muscle to force the issue and get better treatment, and, as I've said before, some smaller contractors that are up and comers or that have a good and close relationship with the local Cat house, they can get some of the extra costs covered too.

But, you never clear a profit with warranty repair, cause when it's being worked on, it ain't making money.

 

[Orchard Ex]

Wait, are ya'll talking about the customer paying the dealer to travel for covered warranty repairs or are we talking about the manufacturer covering the dealer's cost to travel on site to make a warranty repair?

 

[John C.]

The manufacturer's here don't pay any mileage now days. Most don't pay any travel time and I haven't seen one pay freight to the shop unless someone got hurt real bad. One manufacturer that I know of paid a flat fee for travel no matter how far the machine was away, $25 doesn't go far for travel time. All the dealer's I know of in the Northwest charge the mileage and travel to the customer.

Warranty repairs paid by the manufacturer are usually only at the dealer's loaded rate and is capped per job. If you charge $70 per hour retail the manufacturer only pays $38. I've never seen a time book for repairs on heavy equipment but in the auto industry they are written in a clean shop with all the special tools in the world and people who have done the job a few times. Now you are out in the mud or below zero weather in a field truck with basic tools. What are your chances of making book rate?

That new machine with all that new technology in it that the manufacturer doesn't have time to test fully before foisting it on the public now gets a mechanic that may have never seen it before who has to figure it out for the first time cold. Most manufacturers only pay for the fix and not for the troubleshooting time. It took five hours to figure out the problem and half an hour to install the component. You get paid for one half hour, $18.50. Your minimum cost in the job is $190.

Now do think you'll get rich on warranty work.

Some manufacturers give discounts on the number of machines the dealer sells. Volvo used to give credits for mechanics completing correspondence courses. Komatsu used to credit the sale a percentage amount to pay for warranty issues up front. The amount that didn't get used went to the dealer's sales department's bottom line, not the service department.

It's in the manufacturer's and the dealer's interest to keep warranty repair costs low. That is not necessarily the best thing for the customer.

Now as Joe says someone has to pay for the down time on the machine. Only the big boys get to play that game.

 

[Wulf]

Wait, are ya'll talking about the customer paying the dealer to travel for covered warranty repairs or are we talking about the manufacturer covering the dealer's cost to travel on site to make a warranty repair?

I guess I was responsible for the hijack. I was talking about the manufacturer's policy for reimbursing field technicians travel time, truck km and labor costs back to the dealer.

As joe indicated the dealer will sometimes pick up the costs that the manufacturer does not cover.... this includes oil and filters that are consumed carrying out warranty repairs, loaner machines, site visits when no fault was found etc.

 

[surfer-joe]

Good point Wulf. Factory folk are cheap when it comes to warranty, dealers sometimes pick up the slack, unless, as I mentioned, you have some pull at the factory and can pick up the phone and dial the manufacturer president and CEO direct without going thru the switchboard or "waste your valuable time voice mail system."

I have seen the factory step in sometimes when a dealer is being a little hard-headed. They also sometimes reimburse the dealer "out of sight," with other financial deals that lessen the bite of a big warranty claim. They work it out internally.

 

[EZ TRBO]

I may be a young operator, but have grown up around equipment and with many people who have years of experience on machines. We ourselves had a 312 CAT, very nice machines, never any major problems in 6600 hours but with the name comes $$$. I myself have had time on CAT's, Link Belts, and Komitsu's. The CAT is nice, for a smaller machine fairly well balanced and plenty of digging power(did alot of rock excavation with it as well). The Link Belts I have ran were all new or next to new rentals(for an extra machine on large projects), and everyone was very nice, plenty of power. My latest Link Belt machine was the 240X2 Long Reach. I could reach at full extension and scoop mud and muck up and on my latest project, dredging sand near the Mississippi River, and it has worked wonderful for that. As far as the Komitsus' I would never buy one. The two I have ran a 200 and 220 just are not that comfortable to me. I just can't get used to running them. The 200 always has a breaker on it at the rock quarry for busting bolders(bit bigger hammer on it then it should be) and the 220 is our quarry stripping machine, bout 5400 hours on it and just doesn't have the power I would like nor, like I stated before, is commfy for me to run(maybe its just in my head). One other note on the 220, the guy that ran it before me(won't call him an operator) beat the S*!T out of it and never and I mean NEVER did any maintance to it. So my order, if going by just machine, CAT, Link Belt, Volvo(from word of mouth) and anything else before Komitsu's.
Just my two cents.
Jason

 

[RKO]

Excavators

I have owned several different brands of excavators over the years.
If you are buying an older excavator I would say Cat for sure. But I have had the best luck and production with the John Deere/Hitachi Excavators the last 15 years. The Cats I had seemed to be slow and not have the lift capacity as the John Deere. Also the Cats are hard to dig the mud from the tracks. (that is important when you work in mud all the time) Tried several Komatsu but around 5000 to 6000 HRS. they started to give troubles, Also did not like the seat / controls. As far as dealer service and parts Cat with no hands down, Next Komatsu, then John Deere/Hitachi, then the others. Someone said they could not get Hitachi parts?? If they have a John Deere dealer you have a Hitachi dealer. Had several dealers bring me their excavators to try out, but there is no dealer support for them and they just did not seem like they were built as good.
Maybe it is just the dealer I work with, but the waranty they give you all depends on the price you pay for something.

 

[Countryboy]

Welcome to HEF RKO! :drinkup

 

[klyons]

try out a deere. they are well balanced smooth and the hitachi pumps are hard to beat.

 

[RKO]

Excavators

Going to a fairly large pipe job and going to need to add a couple excavators. So this past couple weeks We have tried out Cat, Komatsu, John Deere and a couple off brand Excavators. The off brands the guys wanted nothing to do with, to many things wrong, and no dealer support. (If they gave them to you, you could not afford them as down time kills you) The John Deere was the best, they liked every thing about it and I almost bought it, but where I live and usually do the most work there is no dealer support for John Deere. The Cat was good machine but was slower and did not have the digging capacity the John Deere or Komatsu had. The Komatsu almost was the one we bought till I tried to climb a bank. The stick did not have the power to help pull the machine along. Tried to climb the same bank with the John Deere and it climbed right up the bank. That and several other small things I ended up buying one Cat and leasing with a purchase option a John Deere to do this job. I will do this job with the John Deere and if we end up working near home I will not have to buy it. Wish we had a good John Deere dealer where I live.

 

[RKO]

John Deere

try out a deere. they are well balanced smooth and the hitachi pumps are hard to beat.

Not all the John Deere use Hitachi pumps. Some John Deere's use a Linde Pump. They are a good pump you just have to make sure and use the right oil in the system and make sure the oil is clean.
Some people think the only difference between the Hitachi and John Deere Excavators are the motors. That is some what right, But many John Deere Excavators also use a different pump, Hyd. valves, and Cylinders. Don't know why they do it.

 

[John C.]

The Linde pumps were used on the older model John Deere excavators, 490 & 690. Hitachi uses Kawasaki pumps on the small machines, up to ZX220 and uses the bent axis pumps on the ZX300 and up I think. Those pumps have the Hitachi casting marks but I don't think that Hitachi manufactures them. Having some experience with both machines I found the Isuzu engines far superior to the Deeres. Ring and liner problems and lots of leaks on the Deeres really soured my tast for them. Some Hitachis had Hino engines and I had problems with those. The large Hitachi machines had Cummins 855 engines and those worked well until they developed crankcase pressure from ring and liner wear. I have found the pilot controllers in the cab of both makes to be the major source of hydraulic oil leakage. They start at around the 3,500 hour mark and then you have to put new seals in every one to two thousand hours forever more.

I am surprised at hearing of a travel issue in either the Cat or the Komatsu. Which model machines are you dealing with? I have watched both extensively and run a few now and then and really found both machines would go anywhere the operator had the courage to take them. Power on the stick and bucket curl seems to be a manufacturer's preference.

 

[RKO]

Excavator

The Linde pumps were used on the older model John Deere excavators, 490 & 690. Hitachi uses Kawasaki pumps on the small machines, up to ZX220 and uses the bent axis pumps on the ZX300 and up I think. Those pumps have the Hitachi casting marks but I don't think that Hitachi manufactures them. Having some experience with both machines I found the Isuzu engines far superior to the Deeres. Ring and liner problems and lots of leaks on the Deeres really soured my tast for them. Some Hitachis had Hino engines and I had problems with those. The large Hitachi machines had Cummins 855 engines and those worked well until they developed crankcase pressure from ring and liner wear. I have found the pilot controllers in the cab of both makes to be the major source of hydraulic oil leakage. They start at around the 3,500 hour mark and then you have to put new seals in every one to two thousand hours forever more.

I am surprised at hearing of a travel issue in either the Cat or the Komatsu. Which model machines are you dealing with? I have watched both extensively and run a few now and then and really found both machines would go anywhere the operator had the courage to take them. Power on the stick and bucket curl seems to be a manufacturer's preference.

I leased a 350 John Deere. I bought a 320 Cat. It will be here in a few weeks. I tried a Cat 330and a Komatsu 300 and Komatsu 400. The travel on the Komatsu was Bad. If you tried to use the tracks and stick at the same time the one with the less resistance worked. The Cat was better but the John Deere was the best you could use two functions at the same time.
I have had 2-690E, 790E, 890D 200,200C and have excellent luck with them. I have ran them all to about 12,000 hours or more and have not had any problems, with motors, pumps, engine or any other major problems. The 414 and 466 John Deere engines have been good for me. The 414 that I had in the two 690E would start at 20 below zero just like it was 70 degrees. I could not believe a John Deere engine would start that good. The first 690E I had a plate was left in the Hyd tank from the factory and it would suck against the suction outlet and starve the pump. That was fixed and I still Have that machine as a Demo Machine with 15,000 hours. This machine is the only one I put pilot controll seals in and that was just last week.
The 2-690E had different Linde pumps in them. The 790E 890D and the two 200 had different pumps and cylinders than the Hitachi counter part. I tried to get seal kits for several cylinders from a Hitachi dealer and the parts are different. Needed a seal for a Hyd pump and the Hitachi pump was different on the 200. If I remember right the filters are different to. I do not know about the new machines. Over all If There was a good dealer for John Deere where I lived I would have all John Deere Excavators, but the dealer Is TERIBLE. We have a good Komatsu Dealer and a half a-- Cat dealer. I need dealer support as I can not afford to be down for a long time. I do not have the money to pay penalties for not getting the work done on time. Or the money to let a machine just set around. A machine has to make it's payments for me, or I can not afford it.