Deere vs. Cat 160-200 size excavators

[Farm Rigging]

Hey all! New member to the forum however not new to the forum. Been stalking ya'll for years getting fantastic information that has helped me a lot over the years. So a big thank you to ya'll for that!
I am a farmer and have owned a lot of different equipment over the years, and am looking at getting a larger excavator for the farm to help out the 12,000lb excavator that we have that is getting overworked. I have several thousand hours seat time in smaller excavators (6,000lb to 12,000lb) but not as much in the bigger hoes.
I have a few questions for you guys, Deere vs. Cat excavators in the 160-200 class. I want to hear from people who have either had seat time running them or have owned them, or have worked on and repaired them. Year range I'm looking at are 1996ish to 2009ish.
Questions are as follows,

1. How much of a size difference are we talking overall size between 160 and 200? (I will be hauling with a 45' step deck style equipment trailer with hydraulic ramps behind a KW T800)
2. In your experience, which brand is easier to work on and has the best parts availability and why?
3. Longevity between deere vs. cat and what are some known issues in the model years, if there is any?
4. How many hours if taken care of can these machines go for without major issues?
5. Quick tach, what are the better or more popular styles that you would recommend?

If I think of more questions I will post them. Whatever brand I get will have a hydraulic thumb on it as a must for what I am going to do with it (Tree, stump and brush removal, grading, loading manure spreaders.) Might consider a 120-140 size but concerned it would be too small but talk to me! I could be all washed up. I wouldn't mind hearing about Hitachi as well. Other brands probably not as dealer support isn't great for the other brands near me. Cat and Deere dealers are fairly close to me. I run a lot of Deere equipment, (tractors, wheel loader, etc) so kinda leaning that way but what are your thoughts?

Thanks again in advance and let the good conversation flow!!

 

[BC Placer gold]

In our experience Hitachi/Deere & Cat: top tier brands, excellent parts availability. These days all parts are pretty pricey….but generally, our local dealers aren’t too outrageous.

Haven’t ran a 160, but owned a Hitachi zx135 & Hitachi zx120 (both early 2000’s, pre emissions Isuzu power). Really nice hydraulic’s & super good on fuel. No major repairs in 3500-4000 combined hours. Both had nice heavy built Daequip pro-link thumbs (highly recommend a link thumb if possible for extended range of motion)—-Really like this size machine, easy to move but still enough reach & weight for most work.

Also ran a Hitachi Ex270 roadbuilder for 2 mining seasons. Really stable platform (long undercarriage, heavy guarding etc). A more capable machine for heavy brush clearing, trees/stumps etc. The Hino diesel was really fond of fuel! This machine had well over 20,000h and still ran really well (rebuilt pumps)—-A bit large for easy moving (11’ 2” width).

The Deere equivalent machines generally differ in that they have Deere power/cooling(?). Otherwise same as Hitachi (afaik)

Currently (last 7 years) running a Hyundai 210-7 (2003). A fair bit more reach and weight than the 120’s but not too bad for low-bedding (10’ 2” width). We do a fair bit of road building/clearing and a lot of bulk earth moving so the economics of the 210 versus the 120’s “penciled out” in our favour.

All our larger machines used “WBM” style ears and manual wedge lock couplers. I like the simplicity & durability of this system. Also doesn’t change the bucket tip dig radius much. We did have a pin grabber on a Cat 304 mini….didn’t really like how it made the bucket a bit “sloppy”. Could be a bit of a regional thing as you see very few pin grabbers here in general.

All our equipment is pre-emissions as we work in really remote locations. Regarding ease of maintenance I did prefer the 120 over the 135 (reduced tail swing).

I don’t think you could go wrong with any of the brands you are considering, just need to figure out what size would be most appropriate for your particular needs.

 

[KSSS]

I don't run either of those brands, but somethings are true regardless of what color they are. If your step deck is a tandem axle, you may not have enough trailer to haul a 200 size machine. A lot depends on the light weight of the truck and trailer, but I wouldn't assume you have enough, especially if its only 45' in length. The other issue is you may be too tall with a 200.

As far as comparison between a 160 and 210. If the 160 has the 10' stick you will have very near the same reach as a 210. The 160 is 8' wide so its easier to trailer, but may be a little tippy over the side at full extension with a loaded bucket. I run a 42" dig bucket on a 160 and a 210 would run a 48" dig bucket.

I use a tandem axle step deck at times to haul my 160 and with an 880 Kenworth, my total weight is 79K. So I have no room even to add more buckets with that step deck. I am also 13' 6' in the air, so not a lot more room there either.

As far as how long they last and known issues, you would really need to nail down what models and years your specifically interested in. Buying anything used, is a gamble. So how long they last largely depends on whether the previous owners kept up on the maintenance and took care of the machine. You hear stories of guys putting 15K on an excavator with zero breakdowns, and the next guy is putting in a hyd. pump at 5k. Do your due diligence and have a machine checked out by a mechanic, hopefully a guy that knows that machine, pull oil samples and try and make a sound decision based off what the samples and a mechanic has to say.

I like pin grabbers and I like prolink thumbs, but in your case, you might want to take whatever thumb happens to be on the machine.

A 145 sized machines are nice, zero tail, lighter, easier to mobilize. Obviously they wont fling dirt like a 210, but being a farmer your not living and dying off its ability to throw dirt, all day, every day. The other advantages of the machine, might make it worth looking at.

These sized machines hold their value very well, especially those used in good condition. I wouldn't get to wrapped up in a Deere, unless you happen to have a Deere construction store near you. The green tractor guys wont be a lot of help on a large excavator.

 

[CM1995]

Welcome to the Forums!

For starters the D series Cat excavators are some of the best of the brand IMO. Owned 2 C's, 3 D's and 1 F. Currently have a 321DLCR and 325 Next Gen.

How often will you need to move the machine?

 

[BC Placer gold]

I always thought a 160 would be a really nice size machine, just couldn’t find one in our price range….

 

[skyking1]

They are great for moving, as @CM1995 is hinting at.
If it gets to stay on the farm, get more excavator rather than pay the 160 premium.

 

[CM1995]

They are great for moving, as @CM1995 is hinting at.
If it gets to stay on the farm, get more excavator rather than pay the 160 premium.

Yeah that's what I was going towards.

If the machine was going to be on one parcel of land for a months at a time I would go bigger than a 315 or 320. Probably a 33O sized machine, 75-85K lb range.

 

[skyking1]

^ march across the property and slay all the dragons, rescue the princess, then get back on a lowboy and sail off into the sunset.

 

[Farm Rigging]

Awesome replies so far! Thanks for the input! To answer the question of how often the machine needs to move, couple times a year maybe and that move would be about a mile. If it wasn't for the nice pretty asphalt the county has we could walk the machine lol! Farthest it would travel would be maybe five miles, that would only be to help a friend or the like. Otherwise it would mostly live on a couple pieces of land a mile apart.

 

[Farm Rigging]

I don't run either of those brands, but somethings are true regardless of what color they are. If your step deck is a tandem axle, you may not have enough trailer to haul a 200 size machine. A lot depends on the light weight of the truck and trailer, but I wouldn't assume you have enough, especially if its only 45' in length. The other issue is you may be too tall with a 200.

As far as comparison between a 160 and 210. If the 160 has the 10' stick you will have very near the same reach as a 210. The 160 is 8' wide so its easier to trailer, but may be a little tippy over the side at full extension with a loaded bucket. I run a 42" dig bucket on a 160 and a 210 would run a 48" dig bucket.

I use a tandem axle step deck at times to haul my 160 and with an 880 Kenworth, my total weight is 79K. So I have no room even to add more buckets with that step deck. I am also 13' 6' in the air, so not a lot more room there either.

As far as how long they last and known issues, you would really need to nail down what models and years your specifically interested in. Buying anything used, is a gamble. So how long they last largely depends on whether the previous owners kept up on the maintenance and took care of the machine. You hear stories of guys putting 15K on an excavator with zero breakdowns, and the next guy is putting in a hyd. pump at 5k. Do your due diligence and have a machine checked out by a mechanic, hopefully a guy that knows that machine, pull oil samples and try and make a sound decision based off what the samples and a mechanic has to say.

I like pin grabbers and I like prolink thumbs, but in your case, you might want to take whatever thumb happens to be on the machine.

A 145 sized machines are nice, zero tail, lighter, easier to mobilize. Obviously they wont fling dirt like a 210, but being a farmer your not living and dying off its ability to throw dirt, all day, every day. The other advantages of the machine, might make it worth looking at.

These sized machines hold their value very well, especially those used in good condition. I wouldn't get to wrapped up in a Deere, unless you happen to have a Deere construction store near you. The green tractor guys wont be a lot of help on a large excavator.

See, I was wondering about that. Yes it is a double axle trailer. Truck is a longer framed truck, but no drops. Nothing fancy other than 3/8" frame and lots of hp for the kitty. lol.
I didn't realize a 160 and 200 were that close as far as overall size. Very good to know. Yes, I do prefer the linked thumbs myself as well.
I do have a deere construction and logging dealer nearby as well as the ag dealer. Cat and deere are well represented in my area. I was warned that the ag guys wouldn't be able to help with the yellow iron.

 

[Farm Rigging]

In our experience Hitachi/Deere & Cat: top tier brands, excellent parts availability. These days all parts are pretty pricey….but generally, our local dealers aren’t too outrageous.

Haven’t ran a 160, but owned a Hitachi zx135 & Hitachi zx120 (both early 2000’s, pre emissions Isuzu power). Really nice hydraulic’s & super good on fuel. No major repairs in 3500-4000 combined hours. Both had nice heavy built Daequip pro-link thumbs (highly recommend a link thumb if possible for extended range of motion)—-Really like this size machine, easy to move but still enough reach & weight for most work.

Also ran a Hitachi Ex270 roadbuilder for 2 mining seasons. Really stable platform (long undercarriage, heavy guarding etc). A more capable machine for heavy brush clearing, trees/stumps etc. The Hino diesel was really fond of fuel! This machine had well over 20,000h and still ran really well (rebuilt pumps)—-A bit large for easy moving (11’ 2” width).

The Deere equivalent machines generally differ in that they have Deere power/cooling(?). Otherwise same as Hitachi (afaik)

Currently (last 7 years) running a Hyundai 210-7 (2003). A fair bit more reach and weight than the 120’s but not too bad for low-bedding (10’ 2” width). We do a fair bit of road building/clearing and a lot of bulk earth moving so the economics of the 210 versus the 120’s “penciled out” in our favour.

All our larger machines used “WBM” style ears and manual wedge lock couplers. I like the simplicity & durability of this system. Also doesn’t change the bucket tip dig radius much. We did have a pin grabber on a Cat 304 mini….didn’t really like how it made the bucket a bit “sloppy”. Could be a bit of a regional thing as you see very few pin grabbers here in general.

All our equipment is pre-emissions as we work in really remote locations. Regarding ease of maintenance I did prefer the 120 over the 135 (reduced tail swing).

I don’t think you could go wrong with any of the brands you are considering, just need to figure out what size would be most appropriate for your particular needs.

So, I guess the question should be asked, how much smaller is a 120 from a 160? Compared to your 200, how much "slower production" was it than the 200? 50%? I have seen quite a few 135's and 145's for sale, most with blades which seem like they could be handy on the one hand but the blade would probably get in the way no? We will be getting a dozer at some point so don't think it would be that important. Are the ZTS machines still pretty stable or?
Yeah, that's one of the biggest reasons I came here to ask is for size comparison besides the brand. Last thing I want to do is get a machine that I wish was bigger, but at the same time don't want to get something that is to big and clumsy.

 

[IceHole]

Make sure it's narrow enough to not be a pilot car load. The 200 a friend has requires a pilot car as it's over 10ft wide.

We are allowed 15ft high before needing a permit, no such thing as 13.5ft limit here.

That being said, it's been moved dozens of times (hires it out) and maybe once they had a pilot car

 

[BC Placer gold]

So, I guess the question should be asked, how much smaller is a 120 from a 160? Compared to your 200, how much "slower production" was it than the 200? 50%? I have seen quite a few 135's and 145's for sale, most with blades which seem like they could be handy on the one hand but the blade would probably get in the way no? We will be getting a dozer at some point so don't think it would be that important. Are the ZTS machines still pretty stable or?
Yeah, that's one of the biggest reasons I came here to ask is for size comparison besides the brand. Last thing I want to do is get a machine that I wish was bigger, but at the same time don't want to get something that is to big and clumsy.

Sounds like you won’t have to move the machine often; that would skew me towards the 200 size. The extra reach is substantial, as well as increased bucket capacity/digging power in hard ground. When clearing trees bigger is generally SAFER/faster….that said we have done a lot of clearing/road building with the 120’s. Digging test trenches/pits to maximum depth a blade would be a hindrance in our situation.

Production (especially when stripping overburden or moving tailings) with the 210 is more than doubled compared to the 120….increased reach and bucket size. The extra width (10’2” versus 8’ 6”) gives a fair bit of extra stability.

Stripping loose silt/gravel overburden (easy digging on our site) the 210 runs a 2 yard cleanup bucket versus a 1 yard bucket on the 120. In our situation that means more hours/day running the wash plant.

Regarding stability; the 135 (reduced tail) we ran was just as stable as the 120 (I actually thought it was a bit better)….but the 135 also had wide pads. All other specs on these machines are identical.

We are only allowed a 3m width on mining exploration trails so the 135 was really nice when road building on steep slopes with high cut banks.

 

[skyking1]

Make sure it's narrow enough to not be a pilot car load. The 200 a friend has requires a pilot car as it's over 10ft wide.

We are allowed 15ft high before needing a permit, no such thing as 13.5ft limit here.

That being said, it's been moved dozens of times (hires it out) and maybe once they had a pilot car

Moving a mile down a county road is an informal thing. The OP won't have to worry about that.
Unless you have some other need that is for certain a hired out mobilization. It would never pencil out to get your own float and tractor for it.

 

[BC Placer gold]

Or you could go really big for farm use, my buddy bought this beast for $25,000!, 11k less than we paid for a Deere 50 mini.

Even has a thumb. A bit of work to move though lol!

 

[skyking1]

So, I guess the question should be asked, how much smaller is a 120 from a 160? Compared to your 200, how much "slower production" was it than the 200? 50%? I have seen quite a few 135's and 145's for sale, most with blades which seem like they could be handy on the one hand but the blade would probably get in the way no? We will be getting a dozer at some point so don't think it would be that important. Are the ZTS machines still pretty stable or?
Yeah, that's one of the biggest reasons I came here to ask is for size comparison besides the brand. Last thing I want to do is get a machine that I wish was bigger, but at the same time don't want to get something that is to big and clumsy.

If you are hooking onto stumps, there is no replacement for displacement. I have a 120 to use, and it is miserable to stump with if you have ever done it with bigger iron. It takes fractions of an hour to do what a 200 does in seconds.
This adds up quickly when stumping a patch of bigger trees.
Once you get your "position perception" tuned up, you can do anything with a bigger machine, short of walking between too narrow a gap.
Having the ass on it is not that big a liability. Remember you also have reach, so you can track into a narrow spot and reach out a long ways to do some work, and track back out without swinging.
They are smoother to run, easier on your body.

 

[BC Placer gold]

I full agree with everything skyking1 wrote above. Really good observations/advice.

There really is no comparison between the 120 size to 200 size when it comes to “bush work”.

No pilot car is required here for a 210 sized machine.

 

[skyking1]

Here is some stumping I did with the 120 last spring.
This is the biggest stump and I messed with this big fir for a half our before it broke in two and gave up. That chunk was 3K by the butt dynamometer.


A 200 would have split that right off.
For a lot of stumping and road building, a 400 is the right size but the 120 is not so much fun. Did I get it done? Sure.



Don't let having an ass overhang hold you back.
I sneaked in there and back out without bending up that tarp garage.

I have a mini also, but I used the 120 here. There was no place to put the dirt to the side and the 120 reach made it possible. It all needed tracked out of there one way or another.

 

[skyking1]

The other thing about stumping is burning, usually.
A bunch of half stumps burn up much faster than whole stumps. Bigger machines or rippers split them better than smaller iron.

 

[BC Placer gold]

Those are some good sized stumps, nice clean pile. Some piles around here are burned with about a 50 percent dirt content lol! Then they smoulder for a month…