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Detroit 60 series issues

repowerguy

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 18, 2015
Messages
810
Location
United States southern Ohio
Occupation
mixer truck mechanic
I ran into a similar problem on a ISM Cummins, it was a intermittent break in the keyed power to the ECM. On the Cummins, it would do the same as yours does, run fine when cool then run rough when hot. It showed no codes because there was no faults in the sensors. I back probed the plug with a 12v source and it cleared up.
If you want aggravating, work on a loaded mixer in town. The thought of 10 yards turning into a hard block in the drum is up there!
 

Delmer

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 3, 2013
Messages
8,923
Location
WI
If you have a fuel pressure gauge then you're halfway there. Find the sender and run a temporary wire to the cab and use an ohm meter to see whether it's working, and what the range is. Or pull the sender and run a temporary line to the cab.

It probably won't help, but it's easier than going back and forth, fuel, electric, fuel, electric...
 

Ruger_556

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 17, 2015
Messages
66
Location
Pacific Northwest
Thanks for the offer- I'll get this figured out too.

$1k for a scan tool wouldn't be a bad investment. How many times does the scan tool point out the problem? My M11 has a self diagnostic, the worst I dealt with it, it showed #5 injector issues. cummins told me do injectors, ecm, and harnesses for $6,000. I sent the ecm out for $800 to get repotted, swapped injectors hole to hole to eliminate that, and found the issue in one of the harnesses. I hate the idea of throwing parts at something until it works right.

I wouldn't say it ever "points out the problem" but it gives you a lot more information to find the problem and you can run tests that you can't otherwise. I wouldn't work on an electronic engine without one anymore, I used to do that and there are work arounds but it's just so frustrating to not be able to see what is going on. Rather than banging your head on the wall for hours testing things you can just plug in and see what is going on. There is a learning curve to using a scan tool and if you don't know what you're looking at it won't help you.
 

crane operator

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2009
Messages
8,485
Location
sw missouri
First one is just a scan tool. The other three look like used full diagnostic systems, do you need a subscription for each truck/ engine, or is it just plug and play?

I guess if I have to give $400 to just scan, I'd rather pay $1,000 or $1,500 to really see what's going on. $1,000 won't cover a tow charge for that thing. It would be nice if it would scan cummins (M11 and n14) and detroit 60 series (all ddec to IV), cat . I own a m11 and a 60 series. May repower a crane with a 60 series in the future. Most of the big all terrains are mercedes V-8 power, don't know what they use.

https://www.amazon.com/OTC-3418-Heavy-Duty-Code-Reader/dp/B001A4FKA0

http://www.ebay.com/itm/HEAVY-DUTY-...184701?hash=item3619a086fd:g:~ucAAOSw2gxYyuiJ

http://www.ebay.com/itm/BLACK-CF-30...709491?hash=item2cc14e84b3:g:yWwAAOSwCkZZPL6~

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Nexiq-Pro-L...793448?hash=item36196cc7e8:g:deUAAOSw4CFYtjg9
 

Junkyard

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Joined
Jun 5, 2016
Messages
3,655
Location
Claremore, OK
Occupation
Field Mechanic
Darn sure don't want the cheap one. I was given one and it's not worth a plug nickel. You could get more info from an electronic engine with a pair of coat hangers and a tin foil hat than that particular unit. If I was gonna do it the laptop is the way to go but I'm always slightly spooked by them from unknown sources.
 

crane operator

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2009
Messages
8,485
Location
sw missouri
Darn sure don't want the cheap one. I was given one and it's not worth a plug nickel. You could get more info from an electronic engine with a pair of coat hangers and a tin foil hat than that particular unit.


That's what I haven't tried yet: coat hangers and a tin foil hat will give me just as much info as I'm getting right now- and its more in my $ range..... :)

If I go with the laptop, it would be shop dedicated just for the engine diagnostic.
 

Ruger_556

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 17, 2015
Messages
66
Location
Pacific Northwest
First one is just a scan tool. The other three look like used full diagnostic systems, do you need a subscription for each truck/ engine, or is it just plug and play?

I guess if I have to give $400 to just scan, I'd rather pay $1,000 or $1,500 to really see what's going on. $1,000 won't cover a tow charge for that thing. It would be nice if it would scan cummins (M11 and n14) and detroit 60 series (all ddec to IV), cat . I own a m11 and a 60 series. May repower a crane with a 60 series in the future. Most of the big all terrains are mercedes V-8 power, don't know what they use.

https://www.amazon.com/OTC-3418-Heavy-Duty-Code-Reader/dp/B001A4FKA0

http://www.ebay.com/itm/HEAVY-DUTY-...184701?hash=item3619a086fd:g:~ucAAOSw2gxYyuiJ

http://www.ebay.com/itm/BLACK-CF-30...709491?hash=item2cc14e84b3:g:yWwAAOSwCkZZPL6~

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Nexiq-Pro-L...793448?hash=item36196cc7e8:g:deUAAOSw4CFYtjg9

Of those the Pro-Link, the laptop doesn't come with the $700 Data link adapter you need to use it and the software will be expensive subscription based programs. The only downfall is that none of these will be full function on your M11... Cummins is real cagey with their software and you have to either buy it from them or spend $4k to get a tool that covers them. You'll have generic data and codes but no proprietary access or tests.

I have a Nexiq Pocket IQ and have been very happy with it, they're $900 new and not horribly expensive to unlock. Our fleet ranges from New Holland farm equipment to an IH 9400 with an ISX Cummins and it talks to everything, it isn't full function on everything but it gives you a lot of information you wouldn't otherwise have and to date I haven't had to call the dealer out because I couldn't do something.

In summation I would try and find a used Pro-Link or Pocket IQ with Detroit already unlocked, that'll be the most cost effective way to get a full function scan tool for what you have. Any progress on the problem child?
 

crane operator

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2009
Messages
8,485
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sw missouri
No progress on the problem child. I was out running crane today, and will be tomorrow too. Gave it a short look over this weekend between work: Found a loose frame ground (didn't effect running when I totally unhooked it- so I don't think that's it). Going to unhook the wiring loom at the ecm, and look at the connections there.

The wiring in the rocker box all looks good, but the wire feels really odd/ stiff, maybe oil and heat breaking down the insulation? I'm going to get a fuel pressure gauge hooked up/ working, and then see where I'm at. If the wiring harness isn't too expensive, I'm probably going to replace it.
 

crane operator

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Mar 27, 2009
Messages
8,485
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sw missouri
Pulled off the ecm this afternoon. This truck had oil leaks all over it when I got it. We've got the oil leaking stopped, but there's still places we haven't got the crud all cleaned out from. The ecm is hidden behind the frame rail on the drivers side, no good access to clean that area.

Ecm says its a rebuilt from 2014. The plug connections were all saturated with moisture/ oil. I'm sure that wan't doing it any good. Were going to try to clean that all up. Probably replace the loom from the ecm to the injectors, maybe the one from the firewall/ power also. I've got a call in to the dealer about availability and $.

The third picture, and to the far left in the large wire block is the area that looked the worst with moisture/ oil, but they all were damp. all around the plug/ electrical area. The second picture left block, which is I think power in, was also really bad.

20170621_145753.jpg 20170621_145809.jpg 20170621_145830.jpg 20170621_145743.jpg
 

Ruger_556

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 17, 2015
Messages
66
Location
Pacific Northwest
Definitely a Detroit product... Lol

Can't really tell in the pictures but did oil get into the ECM connections? That can cause Problems.
 

crane operator

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Mar 27, 2009
Messages
8,485
Location
sw missouri
Yes, two connectors had oil/ moisture all the way into the connectors, with the pins soaked. One of the big blocks with the small pins, and the other one with the square larger pins, fewer wires (which I'm assuming is power) were the worst.

The oil issues were actually just maintence issues. Leaking valve covers mostly and some other lines. They had left it go so long that the engine, trans, and frame to the front diff were all covered with oil/grime. New valve cover gaskets and some lines replaced and we had the oil issues tamed, but its really hard to get that cleaned up.
 

Numbfingers

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Joined
Oct 28, 2016
Messages
136
Location
Alaska
Occupation
mechanic
No computer or scan tool in my inventory, I can't see buying a $4,000 diagnostic computer for a $15,000 truck, closest computer would be dealer or independent over a hour away. If I trusted it to run right, I'd drive it in. Unfortunately, the road between here and there has quite a few spots where there is no place to get off the road if you're down, not the most fun to be trying out a truck that's got issues.

The dash has a fuel pressure gauge, but it has never worked correctly- only a couple times have I seen it show pressure. I know- why have a gauge that doesn't work (pyro doesn't work either, everything else does). My old cranes have a oil pressure, voltage, and temp gauge, and I've lived with them quite a while, I suppose the fuel pressure gauge didn't seem like a priority.

I did have the thought, when the issues appeared, that it would be great if the gauge worked.

I've been busy out running cranes, truck has been on the back burner, but I did fire it up this afternoon when I got back to the shop, just to see if it would start. Fired right up and runs great in the shop. I'm going out tomorrow morning, with one of the other cranes. Probably get to looking at it monday.

I will say this- when that 60 series runs, it pulls good and has a great set of jakes. The electronics, and possibly better tolerances on the motors, makes the pre emissions, electronic motors, some of the best life motors out there. N14, 60 series, I hear really good things about. But they are moving equipment, and nothing lasts forever.

I don't use the truck every day, probably average once or twice a week, all within a hour of the shop. With my hilly country, with no shoulders on the roads, and grossing over 105,000lbs, 10' wide, when that engine sputters, your heart skips a little right with it.

My opinion has always been-- a mechanical motor- if its got fuel and air- it will run. May not run right, but it will get you home, off the road, whatever. Electronic motors, it seems like when they quit, they really quit. And not only do you have the same fuel and air to check out, the electric all has to be working correctly, or it won't run. If it is showing a code, its a roll of the dice if it actually relates to why its not running.

Electronic is probably not a big deal if your a big outfit/fleet and have the stuff yourself to diagnose, or in a large metropolitan area with well equipped shops.

I just find it simpler on the side of the road or in my shop to diagnose mechanical diesel issues, vs electronic engine issues. Different skill set I guess.
I bought a handy little scanner off Amazon for $240 called FCAR, F502 and it will connect to 6 and 9 pin ports. You can read codes, delete them, and read live values. It's not a full suite diagnostic kit but handy for somebody that doesn't need the whole 9 yards for a single truck. I've used it a couple times and it comes in handy. Right now my customer base just doesn't justify anything more spendy.
 

mht1156

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Joined
Mar 12, 2015
Messages
17
Location
New South Wales Australia
Occupation
Farmer, Truck Driver, Earthmoving
Ok , I have a DDEC 3 that was giving fits like you described a few years ago.
Now I'm not saying that your problem is not electronic but mine turned out to be a very mechanical one.
Truck would start and idle and run well until you put a load to it then it would act like it was running out of fuel or just miss badly.
No codes , and injectors passed test at a Detroit truck shop. They were thinking ECM too. Put new injector harness on thinking that was it, but no change.
Finally we hooked up a clear return line, routed it through cab and went for a drive, under load getting air in fuel so back to shop and start pulling out injectors.
Second one we pulled had a black streak up one side, and o rings damaged in same spot.
Turns out injector cup not sealing properly and under load it was leaking combustion gas into fuel thus next injector getting air when drawing off fuel.
Long story short, head off, new injector cups installed and new O-rings on all injectors.
That was four years ago and has been good ever since.

Mike
 

DMiller

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Feb 21, 2010
Messages
16,842
Location
Hermann, Missouri
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Cheap "old" Geezer
I still enjoy reading when the problems were hard mechanical not the electronics and the electronics failed to find the problem. Been seeing that for over twenty five years now and the techs that can figure out the mechanical issues causing problems is getting slimmer by the day. Tried to teach kids what to look for as to hard faults not code faults but they get fixated on ECMs' and sensors, may as well have been beating my head on the floor of the shop.
 

TomA

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Joined
Aug 17, 2012
Messages
150
Location
Mariposa, CA
I took a quick look and there are a lot of smartphone apps for Cummins and Cat and Paclink for HD Trucks. I would not dismiss any of these without checking them out. I have the Torque app for OBD II for cars and pickups. It is capable of doing far more than anyone would want to do.
 

crane operator

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Mar 27, 2009
Messages
8,485
Location
sw missouri
I haven't really solved anything yet. It's been on the back burner. ECM is going in tomorrow to get codes pulled. We replaced wiring harness in the head (wires were really stiff, broken down), replaced the last jake solenoid, found a broken off wire connector on the solenoid of the starter (12v power wire for something, looks to have been broken for quite sometime, just touching but broken). Have fuel pressure gauge working now also. Cleaned all the connections and hooked back up.

Have good fuel pressure, idled fine after replacing loom in head and fixing the other issues we found. Didn't make a 1/4 mile and it died like before, won't even idle now. Place I do business with can hook up the ecm and read codes without it being hooked to the truck, if that doesn't show us a obvious problem, the truck is going on the rollback trailer and a hour away to the truck shop. I'm done without a computer.

I actually had it pushed up to the big roll back trailer and ready to load, and talked to another guy about it. He made the suggestion to just take in the ecm, and that sounds easier to me than taking in the whole truck, but we may still end up doing that.
 

mikebramel

Senior Member
Joined
Jul 15, 2012
Messages
1,612
Location
milwaukee
You really want to be watching the live data on the ECM. Something may be amiss that won't throw a code, need to verify the power and grounds. You can get a nexiq usb and pocketfleet software for about $1200.
 
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