Hein Werner C12 HD Excavator

[treemuncher]

Can you give me some pointers on why the left track on a Hein-Werner c12hd tracks slower than the right? Could it be just a simple dirty spool problem or is the hydraulic motor going out?

I wonder if it's the same old POS that I started off with. My machine had no swing brakes and one track was always super slow. It was a wore out rag back in the early 90's. The bucket shims, at that time, had about an inch of open slop. But, it got me started and loaded gravel from my pit.

 

[Mission Man]

Thanks for the explanation on the engine. I've got to look for the emergency cut off cable on this one. The way it works right now is when you pull the throttle all the way back, it shuts off. The swing cable doesn't seem to be hooked to a handle so I'm not sure if it even works. So far, I have had to give it a little shot of either to start it the first time but after that she fires right up. Will be going to get it Sat. I think it will work pretty good for knocking some trees down and cleaning up the fence row here on the farm.
I'll try to get some more photos of it. I have a video, but it ran kinda long and is too big for the forum. Thanks again.

 

[Mission Man]

I wonder if it's the same old POS that I started off with. My machine had no swing brakes and one track was always super slow. It was a wore out rag back in the early 90's. The bucket shims, at that time, had about an inch of open slop. But, it got me started and loaded gravel from my pit.

You'll have to forgive my ignorance on "wore out rag" and the "bucket shims" I have not been around the maintenance end of track-hoes. I will say that the track levers are not lined up and easily fall out of neutral. If you are not careful making sure they are in neutral when starting the unit, it will take of in one direction or the other. This has me thinking that it may be a synchronizing problem, but as I said, I'm new to the maintenance end on track-hoes. If I get a chance this weekend, I will try swapping the pump hoses to see if the problem switches side.
Thanks for every one's input.

 

[treemuncher]

You'll have to forgive my ignorance on "wore out rag" and the "bucket shims" I have not been around the maintenance end of track-hoes. I will say that the track levers are not lined up and easily fall out of neutral. If you are not careful making sure they are in neutral when starting the unit, it will take of in one direction or the other. This has me thinking that it may be a synchronizing problem, but as I said, I'm new to the maintenance end on track-hoes. If I get a chance this weekend, I will try swapping the pump hoses to see if the problem switches side.
Thanks for every one's input.

Floppy travel levers that don't stay in nuetral? Always tracks in a circle? If it has no swing braking then it sounds like the unit I used to own. I cut my teeth on that thing but I certainly do not miss it. Nice to know it's still in working condition.

Schaffer Enterprises in Wolf Lake, IL used to have several parts machines, but this was many years ago.

 

[spitzair]

The travel levers have factory detents in them so that they stay in the travel position you put them in, I guess they did this because of how slow these things travel maybe? I dunno... Sure makes it fun to side load on a lowbed if you're not used to it like I was when I first got mine... One day my son was playing in the cab moving levers around like little kids do and left one in the travel position. On my machine the electrical harness is shot so the previous owner rigged a starter button up right at the starter. So I go to start it and it immediately started crawling away once the engine started. Luckily it doesn't move very fast and the engine was just at idle anyways so I was able to get it stopped before anything bad happened...

 

[Mission Man]

So, there it is. Not the prettiest digger on the block. I've got a leak in the hydraulic cooler radiator. I'll need to get that fixed before I can do any work with it.

 

[spitzair]

Looks like a not bad little machine! Tinwork still looks fairly straight too! One thing I noticed is the bucket cylinder looks way too long, you’ll have to be careful that you don’t wreck your bucket linkage, looks like it got bent a bit already… be sure to tie those bucket cylinder hydraulic lines up a bit too if you’re going to clear trees, they snag really easy and will pull those steel hydraulic lines on the top of your boom and break ‘em off… ask me how I know haha!
If you take care of the old girl she’ll give you many years of service, I’ve had mine 14 years now and other than plugged fuel filters and the aforementioned snagging of the bucket hydraulic lines causing a good leak, which was totally my fault, it’s never given me a lick of trouble.

 

[old timer]

Hi Mission Man,
Just back in action, sorry I didn't get back sooner. That is a pretty sweet machine you have there.

As long as the function of the hoist and stick seem fine, should drag the machine on the ground with stick only and lift the side with hoist only (good lifting power/speed) Remember, gear pumps, constant flow, each function should load up the engine (smoke) If one of those seem VERY slow or unable to function, I would say pump (a slow track is a symptom).

First thing is to pull and split the hydraulic filters, look for metal/brass/seal/rubber trash.

When looking for a mis-tracking problem I always find out if it is under load or not. Paint mark 1 pad on each side, lift each side one at a time and count the revolutions per minute. If the speeds are very different side to side (under no load), I would look at track tension first (pin and tumbler drives are notorious), second is drain the oil from the slow final drive case and look for problems (trash)

If the speeds are close when in the air (means good flow) I would totally agree with spitzair to swap the outputs from the 2 big pumps (the smaller one on the top is slew (swing). if the problem changes it is likely the pump. (flow reduced under load)

If the problem doesn't move to the other track, a swivel is easy to reseal, or the drive motor has failed, harder to rebuild.

Good luck, and I hope I have helped.

P.S. I have days worth of stories about welding up and fish plating those sticks. Noticed the usual suspects on your stick. Never repaired a boom eye on a 12 though.

 

[treemuncher]

I found a picture of the C12HD that I used to own and got my start with. Looks like the same one Mission Man has purchased. It's slow enough to be safe to learn on before you get into modern, fast machines that can get you killed faster than you can think. The burn spot behind the door and angle cut on the door glass verify it's the same one.

I think that I sold it to a guy from Hazel, KY back around '95 or so. Heard that he dropped a newer 4-53 into it.

 

[Mission Man]

So, the radiator repair guys tell me that the hydraulic oil cooler is to rotted to repair. I found the hole and sealed it up with some solder, but I would like to replace it if anyone happens to have and old one lying around somewhere.
Treemuncher, sure does look a lot like the one I have. The break, or missing part of plexiglass on the door sure seems the same. The black spot behind the door is a hole someone torched into it, not sure why. The left-hand stick seems to be backwards. I say this cause the grease zert, (or alimight) is facing forward and is really difficult to get to.
The newer engine would explain the lack of the pre fuel filter. This rig only has one canister style fuel filter on it.

spitzair, I'll take a closer look at the cylinder and linkage. I have been looking at how to strap those lines up. That was one of the first things I figured I'd need to get done after oil change.​

Oh, I did notice that one bottom idler roller is in dire need of new bearings too.

 

[Welder Dave]

The bucket cylinder is definitely wonky. The bucket is curled as far the cylinder allows and the cylinder is against the stick but only extended about 1/4 of its travel. It would very easy to bend the cylinder curling the bucket. Need to either get a shorter cylinder or move the mount on the stick up higher. The cylinder should fully extend before it hit the stick. The other problem with the long cylinder is you wouldn't be able to roll the bucket back enough. Maybe a different bucket has been adapted and the linkage is way different?? I can see that cylinder getting bent in 10 minutes or less. Look at the cylinder in Treemunchers post for comparison. It's extended more and the bucket is flat on the ground. It's also quite aways away from the stick allowing the bucket to curl without the cylinder contacting the stick. The cylinder looks shorter.

 

[Mission Man]

After taking a closer look at the pictures I posted I do see exactly what everyone is saying about the bucket cylinder. Looks like if I was to move the linkage to the other hole on the bucket, that might take care of the issue. Would there be any agreements on that?
The first picture is where I think the emergency cut off cable should be attached. This engine seems to only have the throttle and when you pull that all the way back, the engine shuts down. Could anyone verify my idea?
The next 2 pictures is where I think the swing brake cable is supposed to be hooked to. There is no cable hooked to it. Am I right here?

 

[Welder Dave]

You need to make your pics. smaller. Hard to tell exactly what you're looking at with blown up zoomed in pics.
The other holes in he bucket will make very little difference. I wonder if the linkage from the stick to the cylinder or even the bucket has been changed from factory? I can't see it working the way it is. I can see a ruined cylinder though. The way it's set up wouldn't give the best bucket force either. Something is really wonky but not being there in person it's hard to tell the easiest way to fix it.

 

[treemuncher]

When I owned it, it NEVER had a swing brake! You had to compensate with hyd pressure and always work it on a level surface. Otherwise, it was full time on the swing pressure to keep from drifting away from target at free swing speed. It was useless on hilly terrain and of course, it likes to travel in circles with the slow track.

 

[Mission Man]

So that bucket cylinder is 54" long from eye to eye when closed up. Would anyone know what length the cylinder should be?

 

[Welder Dave]

Something is really wonky with the bucket cylinder, linkage and the bucket. It looks like someone adapted a different cylinder. Look how the hyd. line is bent to barely allow enough room to attach the hose. Look at Treemunchers pic. See how much higher up the cylinder is mounted on the stick and also how far away from the stick it is where it connects to the linkage for the bucket. It allows the bucket to curl quite a bit more. Could the stick on your machine have been extended? With the bucket fully curled the cylinder should be fully extended without hitting the stick. The linkage and bucket could be wrong or changed too. Your bucket should be able to curl more than it is but the way it's set up the cylinder would hit the stick regardless what cylinder is on it. The way the bucket mounts are located makes a big difference too. If the lower bucket linkage stuck out further from the bucket would allow for more curl before the cylinder hit the stick. The linkage the cylinder connects to could could have a bend in it too (as could the linkage from there to the bucket) to let the bucket curl more. You also have very little bucket roll back. Look at more modern excavators and backhoes and you'll get a better idea how everything is supposed to work together.

 

[Mission Man]

Hey treemuncher, would you happen to have any idea what is wrong with the swing break? If I'm following the parts breakdown correctly, it looks like the swing gear box would need to be removed and flipped over in order to get to the swing breaking system. Am I looking at all that correctly?
Oh Welder Dave, I haven't figured out how to make the pics smaller. I'm assuming you mean in amount of data they use up. Took me a long time just to get them from the phone to the computer to put them on here. All this technology seems to assume that everyone knows exactly how to use. I don't.
But on another note, I have been looking at the curl, the length of cylinder, etc. and do agree that something is not right. I'd like to find a narrower bucket to use for field tile digging, foundation digging, etc. but I don't think that would really fix all the problems. I feel like the cylinder is just to long. I maybe wrong. but....

 

[Welder Dave]

I take the pics. from my phone and use my phone to reply. Just have to click on attach files in the bottom left and it will go to your pic. gallery.

 

[Mission Man]

I'll try it from my phone this time.
Could I get any advice on which oil cooler would be best?
I underlined the size of the one that would fit, but is just a little smaller than the one I'm replacing.
I can modify the frame to take the next one below. It's just a little thicker but more to the right size dimensions.

 

[Welder Dave]

You need to know how many GPM your machine has. I'd guess more than 30.