John Deere 230 LC Starter Problems

[jlittle2212]

Operating machine the other day and lost all power engine shut down. Now, I have went through the relays in the battery box and fixed one blown. Now, the starter solenoid is just clicking and will not turn over. I hooked direct power to starter, same thing. Anyone have any suggestions?? Are all three relays in the battery box supposed to be hooked to +??

Thanks in advance. Any help would be great!

 

[Delmer]

If the solenoid ITSELF is clicking (not the relays) then the problem is the solenoid or starter or engine or battery cables/battery. Not the "controls". Either the starter isn't getting enough power, the starter/solenoid isn't making as much power as it should, or the engine is locked up.

When you say "direct power" did you connect the battery terminal to a small terminal on the solenoid, or the other big terminal on the solenoid?

I'd see if you can turn the engine over by hand, then hook up some test leads and a voltmeter and see where the power ends when you try to crank it.

 

[jlittle2212]

If the solenoid ITSELF is clicking (not the relays) then the problem is the solenoid or starter or engine or battery cables/battery. Not the "controls". Either the starter isn't getting enough power, the starter/solenoid isn't making as much power as it should, or the engine is locked up.

When you say "direct power" did you connect the battery terminal to a small terminal on the solenoid, or the other big terminal on the solenoid?

I'd see if you can turn the engine over by hand, then hook up some test leads and a voltmeter and see where the power ends when you try to crank it.

I need a rundown on this system. This is my first time dealing with a Deere. Seems pretty common though.

The solenoid on the starter is clicking. I've tried the hammer trick with no luck. and we have had no problems out of the starter. I hooked a jumper (power wire) from the battery to the small power on the starter solenoid. Where does the starter ground? I should be getting 24 volts on the bigger lead correct? Is there anywhere I can get a schematic for this unit?

So the power comes out of the battery and goes to a relay. That relay has a hot side from the battery and the ground side goes back to the starter solenoid correct? Where does the exciter wire come from?

 

[Delmer]

The starter grounds to the engine it's bolted to. Yes, you should be getting battery voltage to the big terminal on the solenoid at all times, and the big terminal going from the solenoid to the starter when the solenoid is energized. This cable from the solenoid to the starter might not be visible, I don't know.

Forget the relays and controls. You bypassed all that and the solenoid still just clicks.

Get out the voltmeter and see where the power is and isn't going when you "click" the solenoid, or go through the battery cables (every connection, and every inch of every big cable) and find where it's loose, or try to turn it over by hand.

 

[jlittle2212]

The big terminal(#18) from relay (#8) to starter was marked black is what threw me off. I am getting no power on #18. On that first relay (#8) coming off the battery hince why I assumed it was a ground. So I should be getting power on both sides of the relay (#8)? Would that relay going bad cause the machine to just stop? I changed it out with one I had on the truck assuming it was good but not sure. I have checked all connections, everything seems to be nice and tight.

Thank you so much for your replies so far.

 

[Delmer]

Forget what I said before...

It sure looks like you have a relay AND a solenoid on the starter, so that the solenoid will click (if you hotwire it) with no power getting past the first relay. You definitely need to have power on #18 when the engine is cranking. I don't know how #8 and #15 relate so I can't even guess when #18 is supposed to be hot. Never seen that before...

There are Deere experts here, they'll get you straightened out eventually.

 

[jlittle2212]

Forget what I said before...

It sure looks like you have a relay AND a solenoid on the starter, so that the solenoid will click (if you hotwire it) with no power getting past the first relay. You definitely need to have power on #18 when the engine is cranking. I don't know how #8 and #15 relate so I can't even guess when #18 is supposed to be hot. Never seen that before...

There are Deere experts here, they'll get you straightened out eventually.

I am sure that its fairly simple, just intimidating! Thanks for your input!! :notworthy

 

[jlittle2212]

I hooked the starter wire straight on battery and starter crossed over. I just cant start it with a key. The battery relay is not getting power on the starter side. This is a brand new battery relay. Can anyone please help?

 

[Shimmy1]

Maybe keyswitch pooped out?

 

[jlittle2212]

Maybe keyswitch pooped out?

The key will make solenoid click, just won't put power to the starter. Do you know anything about the single stage diodes in the cab under the fuse panel? Another mechanic had told me to check those diodes This is a different setup than what I am use to. You can see it in a previous post in this thread.

 

[Shimmy1]

My experience with solenoids that are clicking: you need to get battery power to the big terminal on motor itself, see if motor spins. If motor spins, then get someone to help you. The helper turns key to start (which should engage starter drive), you energize the motor. If engine starts, the solenoid is likely at fault. If the starter motor just spins and doesn't turn engine over, problem still likely to be solenoid related. Be aware, though, whatever you can figure out to energize starter motor needs to be more than a 10 or 12 gauge wire.

 

[John C.]

You need some information on the starter safety system installed on this machine. A service manual with wiring schematics is necessary at this point. The relay that you see hooked to the battery is the system relay and it is supposed to close when the key is turned on. The starter on Japanese machines always has a safety relay, usually bolted onto the starter with a bracket that reaches between the starter and starter solenoid. Many machines use an output from the alternator to open this relay which prevents the starter from engaging. Some use a diode instead of alternator output to do the same thing. You need that piece of information before moving forward to troubleshoot the system.

What you can do is turn the key on and check to see if the gauge or monitor panel comes on. That would tell you the master relay is working. I've seen low oil pressure alarms sound when the engine wasn't running which was a give away that the alternator was shorted through. I've also seen glow plugs shorted through which burned out diodes that were hidden in the cab. If you have glow plugs with a bar connection look for burned paint.

Good Luck!

 

[jlittle2212]

My experience with solenoids that are clicking: you need to get battery power to the big terminal on motor itself, see if motor spins. If motor spins, then get someone to help you. The helper turns key to start (which should engage starter drive), you energize the motor. If engine starts, the solenoid is likely at fault. If the starter motor just spins and doesn't turn engine over, problem still likely to be solenoid related. Be aware, though, whatever you can figure out to energize starter motor needs to be more than a 10 or 12 gauge wire.

I can hook the main starter wire to the battery and cross over the starter and as long as I manually give it fuel, it will run. So I have lost power to my throttle control as well. I just don't have a schematic to be able to trace the system out and I am not very familiar with the Deere setup. With the battery relay and such. I didn't get a chance to check those diodes yesterday as the machine was in a bad spot. I just got it running and moved it where I could get a vehicle to it.

 

[jlittle2212]

You need some information on the starter safety system installed on this machine. A service manual with wiring schematics is necessary at this point. The relay that you see hooked to the battery is the system relay and it is supposed to close when the key is turned on. The starter on Japanese machines always has a safety relay, usually bolted onto the starter with a bracket that reaches between the starter and starter solenoid. Many machines use an output from the alternator to open this relay which prevents the starter from engaging. Some use a diode instead of alternator output to do the same thing. You need that piece of information before moving forward to troubleshoot the system.

What you can do is turn the key on and check to see if the gauge or monitor panel comes on. That would tell you the master relay is working. I've seen low oil pressure alarms sound when the engine wasn't running which was a give away that the alternator was shorted through. I've also seen glow plugs shorted through which burned out diodes that were hidden in the cab. If you have glow plugs with a bar connection look for burned paint.

Good Luck!

Shouldn't you be able to remove the alternator wire and trick the system to test as well? Aparently, they have put an alternator on this machine 2 days prior to this happening. It just seemed odd to me that when this all happened, the machine just shut off.

 

[Ronsii]

I have had the keyswitch on JD/hitachi ex's pop apart slightly and cause this same exact symptom... solenoid will click but starter will NOT crank. Make sure you check the wires coming out of the switch and the back of the switch.

 

[rmllarue91]

With the key in run position there should be power on one of the small wires on the magnetic master switch / battery relay and the other small wire should be grounded this energizes and internal field and should feed power from one large terminal to the other. You can remove both wires and bolt them together to bypass relay to confirm relay issues.

 

[Shimmy1]

I have had the keyswitch on JD/hitachi ex's pop apart slightly and cause this same exact symptom... solenoid will click but starter will NOT crank. Make sure you check the wires coming out of the switch and the back of the switch.

Hmmmmm.........Seems I mentioned the key switch yesterday?:idea

Maybe keyswitch pooped out?

 

[Delmer]

Hmmmmm.........Seems I mentioned the key switch yesterday?:idea

Well, I gave a bunch of misleading advice yesterday, so I'll wait until we see what the fix is in the end. I don't have any experience with this double relay solenoid setup, so I can't imagine what let the key operate the solenoid but not the other relay.

 

[jlittle2212]

With the key in run position there should be power on one of the small wires on the magnetic master switch / battery relay and the other small wire should be grounded this energizes and internal field and should feed power from one large terminal to the other. You can remove both wires and bolt them together to bypass relay to confirm relay issues.

I have power on the small wire on top of the large battery relay. The starter will cross over and start if I bolt them together just will not start by the key. However, you can turn the machine off by the key when you start it by crossing it over. I am thinking my problem is in the cab around the fuse panel. Do you know what the three block style fuses on the battery relay are for?? I have one on the battery side and two on the starter wire side.

I have checked the keyswitch and everything seems to be in tact and working. I still can't understand why the machine would just shut down during operation. Maybe I am over thinking and it is something simple?

 

[Ronsii]

Hmmmmm.........Seems I mentioned the key switch yesterday?:idea

Heh heh... I know Shimmy1 Just thought I would give it another mention because I have seen this happen a number of times on different machines in that make, from what the OP is saying I think it could still be the problem.. the easiest way to rule it out is remove the key switch and check it.