Junkyard's work thread.....maybe haha

[kshansen]

I know I probably posted this some where on this forum before but Junkyard's story reminded me of one from way back.

Company was just starting to get serious oil sampling and they decided to have one person go to each plant and draw samples from everything to be sure they were all taken right. This day I was to hit two or three quarries/gravel bed around this part of the state. The last place for the day was a small gravel bed with a couple front end loaders and small Cat scraper a old 619. Got there a bit before quitting time and was almost done taking the samples. Boss asked if I needed help, "Nah, just pulling two more and I'll be gone!" He said "Swing gate shut and lock it when you leave." Got the last sample from the 619 and jumped in truck to leave, pulled around next to the stock pile and that's when I learned that nice smooth round gravel stone can be as bad as sloppy mud. Truck sank right in to rear axle. No problem right? Loaders and the scraper there to pull it out! Well two problems, they lock keys in office at night and at that time I did not have any Cat keys in the truck! Oh, and this was long before there were cell phones and this place was remote enough it probably would not have had a signal anyhow. After looking over the situation a bit I saw that the disconnect switch in the 619 was right near the seat of the machine, could reach it with no problem. I then shorted out the two terminals with an old bolt and was able to also reach the heat/start switch at the same time. Just needed to run the 619 around facing the front of the truck and hooked up a chain, yea at least I had that much, back it up and popped the truck up on to solid footing and I was free to go.

 

[Junkyard]

We ended up pulling it all the way out with the 7. It was so greasy the rear of the truck would slide to the low side of the road. 3 hours later I can almost drive back to the 11 to put the lift cylinders on. One bad barrel and an 1/8" wear on the piston so it's partially scrap. Been on the 7 about 30 minutes scraping muck out of my work area. We park on the downhill slope so it's more or less like pond silt. It'll suck your boots right off!

Back in my heavy haul days they'd want us to go in some really nasty places. Like the tracked machine or RT crane I had on would care about getting muddy but my highway rig would sink out of sight I'm sure. Not even close to enough flotation or traction!

Junkyard

 

[Junkyard]

Ok boys and girls I need some help. Mostly reinforcement more than anything. The D11 still isn't right with freshly rebuilt cylinders. We don't have the creep we had before. It'll hold itself up for a long time now. Before it would bleed off really fast. Here's my issue, still won't lift the blade at idle, you have to go pretty much wide open to get it up. All the cycle times per my book are slow, blade lift is slow by 50%. I changed the hydraulic filters. Lots of trash from seals etc. Both relief pressures are low, tilt side should be 2,900 it's lucky to get 2,500. On the ripper it's 2,400 at best. Spec there is 2,800. I'm beginning to think we have an issue in the control valve. Load check or make up valve hung up and dumping off some of the pressure and flow. Pump isn't that old, couple years and maybe 3,000 hours. Let me know what you guys think. 74Z0279 is the S/N. I don't see any major hydraulic leaks or external hose issues. A little leak at the pilot valves but that's it. Thanks!

Junkyard

 

[DK88]

id start by dropping some oil from the tank drain and see if theres any sign of debris from a pump, thrust plate, steel swarfs, aluminum if its an aluminum body? does it have a suction filter? how about an inline filter between the pump and c/v? just cause a pumps not old dont mean its not bad again, if a system has a failure it can be costly if not cleaned properly. sounds like you have got some trash jamming a relief up or a safety valve not seating.

 

[Cmark]

Have you looked at the quick drop valves that live on the end of the lift cylinders?

 

[Randy88]

Hours mean nothing when it comes to pumps, I've had pumps not run a week and others run for 10k hours, its got more to do with what has gone through the pump than how many hours its been in service.

I'd start at the pump end myself and work out from there, you might just be chasing the end result not the problem if that makes sense. Just a suggestion

 

[Junkyard]

Both quick drop valves were rebuilt when the cylinders were done. I like all the ideas, it keeps me from getting tunnel vision thinking it HAS to be X, Y or Z. Plus when I tell him what it is and I'm wrong I can throw you guys under the bus! Haha. Just kidding. I'm headed out there today to drop some oil and see what it looks like. Several recent issues are finally making him a believer in oil samples. I was pondering digging into the control valve today, if I have it out and hoses off the pump isn't much more work to drag out and take a gander at. It acts a lot like it did when the pump died last time, very slow blade lift and no real power to lift when trying to feather out a push. I will dig in and update with my findings. Thanks all!

Junkyard

 

[Junkyard]

Opened up the hydraulic tank. Some trash in there from seals but not any metal. Pulled one relief and had some metal flakes in it. Spent an hour cleaning and decided to pull the control valve and take it to the shop to clean it and inspect. Also, a tidbit I discovered today. When the last pump was done, by Cat, no through cleaning was done. Also, the cylinder we found that was grinding the piston on the barrel was most likely doing it then. This was the first time the cylinders had been done since he bought it. I fear a considerable amount of contamination. Cat recommends complete tear down, cleaning, reassembly, filter cart, fresh oil, run short period and change oil/filters again. I haven't found a smoking gun yet just trash here and there which makes me wonder how many other nooks and crannies are hiding metal filings. Weather permitting I think I'll pull the pump tomorrow and see what it looks like inside. Several hoses could stand to be replaced while I'm in this deep.

Thoughts on the cleaning process and filter cart? Swab hoses, disassemble and clean components? Go as far as ripper control valve? Pilot control valve? Or find a bad pump, clean what I can within reason and then filter cart? Thoughts, opinions and experience welcome and appreciated!

Junkyard

 

[kshansen]

Interesting that "NOW" Cat is thinking the system needs a full cleaning and filter cart! But then maybe the guy who found the bad pump had suggested that at the time but was overruled by someone, either at Cat dealer or guy who was paying the ticket. Not being there to know the full story I don't want to accuse someone too much.

Guess the only thing you can do is tell the guy paying the bill what you know in your heart needs to be done having first hand knowledge of the contamination. And I would say to protect yourself I'd make that in the form of an email and printed out letter just so you are not blamed for a future failure if your suggestions are not followed.

Also don't forget to include the oil cooler and anything else that the oil touches.

 

[Randy88]

You can't throw the consultants under the bus until we've been paid, its kind of a unwritten rule on here, besides some of us think he should trade it off for a new one, those come with a warranty and the owners problems are solved, then run the other options by him, it helps make those look really cheap compared to a new machine option. LOL

As for the oil sampling, that's a great program to do, I'd recommend it to anyone.

 

[Jonas302]

Well its easy to recommend a complete tear down and cleaning its quite another to do it effectively I guess I have never seen cat or anybody else actually do that for a pump replacement

 

[Junkyard]

To a degree I feel like you could introduce more crap into the system than you remove. It's not like we can load it up and run by the car wash! Lol. I do think all the steps Cat suggested are a little on the extreme side. Knowing that this could potentially be a second pump I do think we need to spend a little time cleaning and inspecting but I don't know that I would go crazy and strip the machine. My thoughts were the control valve because I'm a little suspicious about trash in it, the pump for obvious reasons, and some hoses. Possibly before I bust it off after that run the filter cart on it? Any idea what the cart service costs?

Thanks guys! (I assume guys, don't want to offend any ladies.)

Junkayrd

 

[kshansen]

Well its easy to recommend a complete tear down and cleaning its quite another to do it effectively I guess I have never seen cat or anybody else actually do that for a pump replacement

Maybe I did not word it very good. That was why I said the person who could see the contamination first hand would need to make that decision. There is a big difference between a pump that is just weak and one that had a catastrophic that put a couple handfuls of metal in the system.

 

[mikebramel]

All that it would take is a piece of fragment you are talking about to run across the valve plate and barrel to make your pump inefficient

 

[Junkyard]

Just about have the pump out. How does something this big have bolts that are hard to get to? Lol. You'd think they'd all be easy to lay your hands on. Oh well. I'm anxious to get it out, washed up and apart to see how bad it looks. I expect some obvious wear. I sure hope it's something definitive!

Junkayrd

 

[kshansen]

Just about have the pump out. How does something this big have bolts that are hard to get to? Lol. You'd think they'd all be easy to lay your hands on. Oh well. I'm anxious to get it out, washed up and apart to see how bad it looks. I expect some obvious wear. I sure hope it's something definitive!

Junkayrd

Yea, sometimes the bigger they are the more stuff they put in the way! Like the front end loaders where you have to pull the cab right off to remove a hydraulic or transmission pump!

 

[Junkyard]

Well I'm far from an expert....but I suspect this pump is trash.

Junkyard

 

[kshansen]

?With that kind of damage on the trust plate that pump would sure be below spec. on output!

 

[Nige]

Comprehensively Donald Ducked would be my considered opinion......

 

[lantraxco]

Reman, rebuild, replace, pick your poison. I've seen a lot worse, but not in a relatively new pump....