Tracked Skid Steers.... Which one is the best all around...

[oilerman]

Im doing a little research on skid steers with tracks. I rented a Bobcat S300 this winter and absouloutly loved it. I want to sell my track loader and buy s skid steer. I have thought about it and I think the tracked machine would work the best for me since there is a lot of wet and soft areas around and a wheel skid steer would be stuck all the time. My knowledge of skid steers is pretty limited so I thought I would ask you guys... and gals if what you think. The main thing I would like to know is how the undercarrage is on each one... Bobcat.. John deere cat newholland all seem to have a diffrent track system on them. Which one would hold up the best? What do you all think?

 

[Swannny]

If you're not in finished yards and concerned about rutting them up, then I'd stick with the S300 since you like it and put over-the-tire steel tracks on it. Can't beat the simplicity of it and the cost per hour will be lower than a dedicated track machine. Loegering tracks have a bit more floatation than the open webbed Grousers, but don't have bushings that you can replace easily like the Grousers do. I'm running the Loegering on a big rubber tire Cat clearing the woods right now and they do just fine in the slop. Keep them on the loose side so the limbs don't stress the bolts and you'll be fine.

 

[Ropinghorns]

I agree with swanny, and I have both with years of experience.

 

[oilerman]

Are those tracks similar to the ones in the ads on this page? I think that would be cheaper and no undercarrage to look after.

 

[oilerman]

I just did some reshearch on them... There are a few of them out there. I think I would go with a rubber track.

 

[movindirt]

Floatation and traction wise you would be better off with a actual track machine.

 

[Swannny]

Floatation and traction wise you would be better off with a actual track machine.

Maybe, maybe not. Lots of variables to consider.

One of the reasons used track machine prices are so high right now is due to the fact that a lot more people think they need one. Hard to find a good relatively low hour unit that's not beat up under twenty grand. I see quite a few local people that have one that don't really need one. Want is not the same as need.

 

[movindirt]

Maybe, maybe not. Lots of variables to consider.

One of the reasons used track machine prices are so high right now is due to the fact that a lot more people think they need one. Hard to find a good relatively low hour unit that's not beat up under twenty grand. I see quite a few local people that have one that don't really need one. Want is not the same as need.

There are very few environments where wheeled machine works perfect all of the time, a ctl can run in any area without much trouble, We have both a wheeled machine and track loaders, the wheeled machine sits when its wet, the only use is for loading trucks on pavement, its pretty much useless for grading, at least compared to a track machine. I haven't ran a wheeled machine with ott tracks in quite a while, but its just not the same as a track machine. To each their own, if I was buying a good all around machine for any environment or weather conditions it would be a track machine.

 

[Swannny]

There are very few environments where wheeled machine works perfect all of the time, a ctl can run in any area without much trouble, We have both a wheeled machine and track loaders, the wheeled machine sits when its wet, the only use is for loading trucks on pavement, its pretty much useless for grading, at least compared to a track machine. I haven't ran a wheeled machine with ott tracks in quite a while, but its just not the same as a track machine. To each their own, if I was buying a good all around machine for any environment or weather conditions it would be a track machine.

Not to be contentious, but....

There are very few environments where a dedicated track machine works perfect all the time. I'd say the CTL/MTL tops OTT tracks in lawns where they can leave less of a mess.

CTL's have their limitations...they obviously can not run into any area without risk of getting stuck.

A wheel machine is not even close to being useless for grading, but they are very efficient in cost per hour and time (tracks or tires, depending on conditions). It may be easier to grade with a track machine for the novice operator, but for the experienced - grading can be done as efficiently with the tire machine with OTT tracks.

I'm not implying OTT tracks on a tire machine are the same as a dedicated track machine. I'm merely saying folks in their perception think they need one when reality says otherwise, plus the initial cost in purchasing and operating a tire machine is (as a rule of thumb) less than a dedicated track machine.

Have a good day!

 

[movindirt]

Not to be contentious, but....

There are very few environments where a dedicated track machine works perfect all the time. I'd say the CTL/MTL tops OTT tracks in lawns where they can leave less of a mess.

CTL's have their limitations...they obviously can not run into any area without risk of getting stuck.

A wheel machine is not even close to being useless for grading, but they are very efficient in cost per hour and time (tracks or tires, depending on conditions). It may be easier to grade with a track machine for the novice operator, but for the experienced - grading can be done as efficiently with the tire machine with OTT tracks.

I'm not implying OTT tracks on a tire machine are the same as a dedicated track machine. I'm merely saying folks in their perception think they need one when reality says otherwise, plus the initial cost in purchasing and operating a tire machine is (as a rule of thumb) less than a dedicated track machine.

Have a good day!

Haha Not to be contentious, but....

About the only area a dedicated track machine is not good in is on pavement.

I hear everyone say how wheeled machines cost less a hour to run, but then we are back to productivity, today I was grading very wet clay, could it have been done with a wheeled machine? Probably, would it have been as efficient or as fast? No, nowhere even close to the speed I could do it with the track machine. Even grading in dry dirt takes longer with a wheeled machine, I have a good bit of seat time skid loaders and I would take a track machine every day of the week with increased costs over a wheeled machine. And in reality, our 247B is on its original set of tracks at 2,031 hours on them, they have been larry lugged, so they will be good to go for hopefully another 500-600 hours. After they are completely un-useable I can get aftermarkets for $1,000 a piece, if I can get 1,000 hours out of them thats $2 a hour operating costs. Your going to have close to $1,000 for a set of tires, so your at $1 a hour for that, not much difference for the change in productivity. Even if I went with fancy Cat tracks at $4500 a set, a good set of no flat skid tires will still run you $4500 to $5 grand. All I am saying is that the OP said he would be in wet areas frequently, so just from my experience I would suggest a dedicated track machine.

 

[Swannny]

Haha Not to be contentious, but....

About the only area a dedicated track machine is not good in is on pavement.

I hear everyone say how wheeled machines cost less a hour to run, but then we are back to productivity, today I was grading very wet clay, could it have been done with a wheeled machine? Probably, would it have been as efficient or as fast? No, nowhere even close to the speed I could do it with the track machine. Even grading in dry dirt takes longer with a wheeled machine, I have a good bit of seat time skid loaders and I would take a track machine every day of the week with increased costs over a wheeled machine. And in reality, our 247B is on its original set of tracks at 2,031 hours on them, they have been larry lugged, so they will be good to go for hopefully another 500-600 hours. After they are completely un-useable I can get aftermarkets for $1,000 a piece, if I can get 1,000 hours out of them thats $2 a hour operating costs. Your going to have close to $1,000 for a set of tires, so your at $1 a hour for that, not much difference for the change in productivity. Even if I went with fancy Cat tracks at $4500 a set, a good set of no flat skid tires will still run you $4500 to $5 grand. All I am saying is that the OP said he would be in wet areas frequently, so just from my experience I would suggest a dedicated track machine.

Seems like you're missing the point - you were in wet clay grading and, most likely, it could have been done just as efficiently with the a tire machine **with OTT tracks on it**. The big kicker is that at the end of the day, year, or career - you'll end up with a lot less down time and more cash in your pocket too.

My friend is almost retired from excavating. He started out in the late seventies primarily digging new basements and finish grading yards. He's never owned a rubber track machine and is only on his second Gehl rubber tire machine (5635sxt) with over 6k hours. Just last year he went to his second set of tracks....got well over 3k on his first set of open bar Grousers. He's probably got 2500 hrs. on his current tires (Galaxy mining tires). He's probably the most efficient operator I know. Grades circles around the landscape guys on the next lot over with their big track machines. Point is, he knows what he's doing.

I just spoke with another old school guy that owns a 110 hp Gehl rubber tire machine...has 2500 hrs, original tires (look like they have 40% tread on them) with Grouser open bar tracks. He's in the muck and woods the majority of the time. His operating costs are substantially lower than they would be if he got it in his head he "needed" a rubber track machine.

No machine is perfect for every job, but too many people are buying into the idea that they can't live without a CTL or MTL.

Just for kicks, if I get time I will video and post a 4 ton rubber tire machine with OTT tracks pushing against a 4 ton rubber track machine in dirt and see which one has better traction. I did it years ago and remember the tire machine (which was lighter) slightly out pushed the track machine on dry dirt.

 

[movindirt]

Seems like you're missing the point - you were in wet clay grading and, most likely, it could have been done just as efficiently with the a tire machine **with OTT tracks on it**. The big kicker is that at the end of the day, year, or career - you'll end up with a lot less down time and more cash in your pocket too.

My friend is almost retired from excavating. He started out in the late seventies primarily digging new basements and finish grading yards. He's never owned a rubber track machine and is only on his second Gehl rubber tire machine (5635sxt) with over 6k hours. Just last year he went to his second set of tracks....got well over 3k on his first set of open bar Grousers. He's probably got 2500 hrs. on his current tires (Galaxy mining tires). He's probably the most efficient operator I know. Grades circles around the landscape guys on the next lot over with their big track machines. Point is, he knows what he's doing.

I just spoke with another old school guy that owns a 110 hp Gehl rubber tire machine...has 2500 hrs, original tires (look like they have 40% tread on them) with Grouser open bar tracks. He's in the muck and woods the majority of the time. His operating costs are substantially lower than they would be if he got it in his head he "needed" a rubber track machine.

No machine is perfect for every job, but too many people are buying into the idea that they can't live without a CTL or MTL.

Just for kicks, if I get time I will video and post a 4 ton rubber tire machine with OTT tracks pushing against a 4 ton rubber track machine in dirt and see which one has better traction. I did it years ago and remember the tire machine (which was lighter) slightly out pushed the track machine on dry dirt.

Haha, tell me, does a flat tire not count as down time? The only time I am going to have down time with a track loader is if the track rips or tears and it becomes un-useable. We had a tornado come through our town about 18 months ago, there was 1 guy that I met that was using a wheeled machine to clean up debris, had to keep 4 extra tires in his truck because of flats, I have never had a flat track yet in a combined 8,000+ hours of track loader operation

As far as your friend that has been grading and excavating since the 70's, most all the guys I know that have been doing it for that long don't change their ways very often, chances are if he demoed a track machine for a day he would rather run that then jump around in a wheeled machine all day haha

I think you are right about people buying track loaders just because they think they need them some of the time, and if I was just working on pavement I would only own a wheeled machine, but 90% of what our track loaders get used for is finish/rough grading and excavation, and it is just not productive or efficient to run a wheeled machine in this environment. If you have steel ott tracks forget about running across concrete and not leaving marks, but I guess you could just take the tracks off, pull across with the wheels and then put them back on on the other side, right? :tong

 

[Swannny]

Haha, tell me, does a flat tire not count as down time? The only time I am going to have down time with a track loader is if the track rips or tears and it becomes un-useable. We had a tornado come through our town about 18 months ago, there was 1 guy that I met that was using a wheeled machine to clean up debris, had to keep 4 extra tires in his truck because of flats, I have never had a flat track yet in a combined 8,000+ hours of track loader operation

As far as your friend that has been grading and excavating since the 70's, most all the guys I know that have been doing it for that long don't change their ways very often, chances are if he demoed a track machine for a day he would rather run that then jump around in a wheeled machine all day haha

I think you are right about people buying track loaders just because they think they need them some of the time, and if I was just working on pavement I would only own a wheeled machine, but 90% of what our track loaders get used for is finish/rough grading and excavation, and it is just not productive or efficient to run a wheeled machine in this environment. If you have steel ott tracks forget about running across concrete and not leaving marks, but I guess you could just take the tracks off, pull across with the wheels and then put them back on on the other side, right? :tong

Flat tires - they make some good slime now-a-days that seals up to 1/2" holes, and they inject them with foam too.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a fan of track machines, but they all have their weaknesses (I've had oodles of them). You can count on running tracks off, ripping lugs off, idler bearing failure, planetary drives failing, yada yada yada. Downtime!

My shop is on my friend's property and he has borrowed one of my machines on occasion over the years, but he is content to stick with what has worked for him, and, no doubt, has saved a boat load of money in doing so. The development projects he works on usually have a 2" base of asphalt until the houses on the road are completed, so he does not have to be concerned about marking it up. He does at times put down plywood, 2x's or a skiff of dirt if he has to trek across a finished drive or sidewalks. The number of rough/finish grades, basements, drainage ponds, wooded lots cleared, etc. he's done is up into the thousands. He wouldn't be hired for so many years and projects unless he were productive with his setup!

I just ran across my customers drive the other day with a 4 ton tire machine with steel tracks and you can hardly tell I was there. Of course, he doesn't seal coat it every year like many do.

 

[Shimmy1]

This seems like a totally useless argument, but I'll put my opinion in anyway. 1. Track loaders more expensive to run. True. 2. Tracks can run nearly 100% of the time, no matter what the conditions are. True. 3. OTT can be as useful as dedicated tracks. True. 4. I do not care that some people say I have a track machine because I "think" I need one, but really I do not. True. These are my opinions. Now I will attempt to answer some of the OP questions. Cat has a torsion suspension. Bobcat has spring controlled bottom rollers. Case/New Holland, Kubota, and Deere are solid. As far as holding up, all the suspensions are going to need work eventually.

 

[Equip Junkie]

Bobcat has the option of solid or suspension undercarriage. They are very different in feel, ride, lifting capacity and how the machine will finish grade. Take a machine for a test drive. Then take another one, but most importantly, make sure that what ever color you buy you can get good support for it. This is what most people say over and over again. Your dealer is super important.

 

[oilerman]

This seems like a totally useless argument, but I'll put my opinion in anyway. 1. Track loaders more expensive to run. True. 2. Tracks can run nearly 100% of the time, no matter what the conditions are. True. 3. OTT can be as useful as dedicated tracks. True. 4. I do not care that some people say I have a track machine because I "think" I need one, but really I do not. True. These are my opinions. Now I will attempt to answer some of the OP questions. Cat has a torsion suspension. Bobcat has spring controlled bottom rollers. Case/New Holland, Kubota, and Deere are solid. As far as holding up, all the suspensions are going to need work eventually.

Im wondering which undercarrige you would think has less problems?

 

[Shimmy1]

Im wondering which undercarrige you would think has less problems?

The solid ones for sure. I'm thinking our Bobcat with the leaf springs might start to need maintenance before the Cat, but it sure rides like nobody's business. I've been using the hell out of it grading around our new shop, and let me tell you. I've never had so much fun on any machine I've ever ran. The hydraulics are FLAWLESS. You could not ask for finer or smoother control than this machine right here.

 

[Georgia Iron]

Hey Swannny, I was wondering if you have ever used a takeuchi tl150. I was wondering how you thought it would push compared to a big wheeled machine with the metal tracks?

 

[Swannny]

Hey Swannny, I was wondering if you have ever used a takeuchi tl150. I was wondering how you thought it would push compared to a big wheeled machine with the metal tracks?

GI - Yes on the TL150...one of my favorites. Guy in TN that bought one of mine several years ago just contacted me yesterday and said he loves it. Comparing it to a wheeled machine on tracks is tough since they don't make too many wheeled models that heavy. The Gehl 7800 with a cummins or yanmar and OTT tracks would be the rival (don't get one with the Perkins!!!!). They are hard to find in low hours, though I know the timber guys favor them. I don't think the boom design (vertical lift) will stand up to the long-term abuse in dirt like the TL150 does.

The 12 mph two speed would be much nicer than the Tak's 6mph. You could also put the Loeggering VTS track system on a 80 to 100 hp tire machine and get the push power due to the gear reduction.

 

[Georgia Iron]

GI - Yes on the TL150...one of my favorites. Guy in TN that bought one of mine several years ago just contacted me yesterday and said he loves it. Comparing it to a wheeled machine on tracks is tough since they don't make too many wheeled models that heavy. The Gehl 7800 with a cummins or yanmar and OTT tracks would be the rival (don't get one with the Perkins!!!!). They are hard to find in low hours, though I know the timber guys favor them. I don't think the boom design (vertical lift) will stand up to the long-term abuse in dirt like the TL150 does.

The 12 mph two speed would be much nicer than the Tak's 6mph. You could also put the Loeggering VTS track system on a 80 to 100 hp tire machine and get the push power due to the gear reduction.

I have both types of machines also, it is hard for me to compare a wheeled unit to the rubber tracked machine. I have an uncle that uses an over tire set of steel tracks on a bobcat unit. He goes much better in the soup with them compared to units without. They are perfect if you are working off road and don't need to move on asphalt or concrete. I can double his work output easy with Tl150. I also drink seems like twice the fuel and have the higher running cost. I have broken 2 different concrete drives running over the edging now with the tl150. I also hate taking the tl to a muddy job because it will bring 200 lbs of mud back and it sucks to clean it up. A wheeled machine is also not balanced like a track machine is for grading.

I have both and mostly use the tire machine just cause it is easier to move, cheaper to use, and easier to see out of working in close quarters. But the track machine is the only way to go once the soil conditions go south. I think the solid rubber tracks float better than the steel over the tire track in mud. If I were working in stumps a lot I would rather have a solid set of steel tracks like those 299 cats can have.

For the average guy, I would think a tl130 sized machine would be pretty hard to argue aqainst.

I took out the tracked machine to pull out a stuck 4 x 4 tractor just the other day. It was just at the point of being a roll over. Guys lucky he did not loose his life there was a tree that almost smashed him to the machine even with the rops.