Scrapers seem to be stuck in the stone age. There doesn't seem to be much difference between a 1960 model and a 1990s model compared to the changes in tractors, cars, combines and highway tractors. What gives ? Why aren't scrapers more refined ?
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Why haven't scrapers evolved very much ?
- Thread starter Someguy
- Start date
alan627b
Senior Member
Someguy, you need to take a look at some really old scrapers and rethink that statement! In the 1920's scrapers started out as a simple scoop that dragged on the ground, pulled by horses.Then tractors. RG LeTourneau put the first "modern" scrapers on steel wheels, then rubber tires. Then upgraded them from mechanical means to electrically operated winches. First though, he had to develop the wire rope that made that possible.
He then was largely responsible for developing the modern rubber tire strong enough to handle the weight of earthmoving equipment. He developed the molds to make the tires, and swung a deal with Firestone where he sold the molds to them, after agreeing to buy the first million dollars worth they made! Then he thought, why not make the scraper move itself? So one guy could operate it.
Early rubber tired scrapers steered with steering clutches! Then RG decided to equip his with electric motors for almost all functions, including steering.
Everybody else tried hydraulics, or had to stick with a 2 axle tractor.
He got competition with Euclid, who made the first twin engine scraper in the late 40's, and later Cat in the late 40's after WW2.
Early hydraulics were slow compared to the cable units of the time, which is why they took awhile to come into further use, probably after hose technology allowed the use of the higher pressures to make the hydraulic sytems faster and more powerful.
Look under the back of an old DW21 sometime, look at how complicated the cable sytem is, and those huge return springs behind the ejector! And 4 rams to steer it with.
So as the late 50's early 60's come along, the 2 axle tractor fades from the scene except in the largest scrapers. Cat came out with the cushion hitch in about 1965, and started to take over the scraper market because of it.
Ask anybody who ever ran a stiff neck how much better the ride is with the cushion hitch! I'll bet Cat guards those patents like a hawk.
The early 60's also brought the 2nd major innovation, the automatic transmission, into widespread use, which no modern scraper is without.
Cat is largely responsible for the push-pull concept, which allowed scrapers to get away from using pushcats.
Case in point, a 627A had app. 400 Horsepower and a G has about 550, That's what a 651 had in 1965! We have electronic engine management, shift synchronisation, AC, sealed cabs with filtered air, boosted steering and very low effort controls, computers that can weigh each load onboard,
etc etc.....
About the only thing that has stayed the same is the basic layout of the machine itself, and the same can be said of dozers, loaders, blades, etc.
They still do the same basic job they did in the 1930's or earlier, so they still bear a resemblance to those early machines.
Until somebody makes a scraper ride on a cushion of air, or levitate on magnets, the basic layout won't change.
Maybe, can't change.
After all, a model T and a modern car still basically do the same thing, don't they? They are still a box on 4 wheels to carry people around...
Sorry about the long winded post....I'm done preachin' now!
Chime in, somebody...
alan
He then was largely responsible for developing the modern rubber tire strong enough to handle the weight of earthmoving equipment. He developed the molds to make the tires, and swung a deal with Firestone where he sold the molds to them, after agreeing to buy the first million dollars worth they made! Then he thought, why not make the scraper move itself? So one guy could operate it.
Early rubber tired scrapers steered with steering clutches! Then RG decided to equip his with electric motors for almost all functions, including steering.
Everybody else tried hydraulics, or had to stick with a 2 axle tractor.
He got competition with Euclid, who made the first twin engine scraper in the late 40's, and later Cat in the late 40's after WW2.
Early hydraulics were slow compared to the cable units of the time, which is why they took awhile to come into further use, probably after hose technology allowed the use of the higher pressures to make the hydraulic sytems faster and more powerful.
Look under the back of an old DW21 sometime, look at how complicated the cable sytem is, and those huge return springs behind the ejector! And 4 rams to steer it with.
So as the late 50's early 60's come along, the 2 axle tractor fades from the scene except in the largest scrapers. Cat came out with the cushion hitch in about 1965, and started to take over the scraper market because of it.
Ask anybody who ever ran a stiff neck how much better the ride is with the cushion hitch! I'll bet Cat guards those patents like a hawk.
The early 60's also brought the 2nd major innovation, the automatic transmission, into widespread use, which no modern scraper is without.
Cat is largely responsible for the push-pull concept, which allowed scrapers to get away from using pushcats.
Case in point, a 627A had app. 400 Horsepower and a G has about 550, That's what a 651 had in 1965! We have electronic engine management, shift synchronisation, AC, sealed cabs with filtered air, boosted steering and very low effort controls, computers that can weigh each load onboard,
etc etc.....
About the only thing that has stayed the same is the basic layout of the machine itself, and the same can be said of dozers, loaders, blades, etc.
They still do the same basic job they did in the 1930's or earlier, so they still bear a resemblance to those early machines.
Until somebody makes a scraper ride on a cushion of air, or levitate on magnets, the basic layout won't change.
Maybe, can't change.
After all, a model T and a modern car still basically do the same thing, don't they? They are still a box on 4 wheels to carry people around...
Sorry about the long winded post....I'm done preachin' now!
Chime in, somebody...
alan
Last edited:
Northart
Senior Member
Refinements ?
That's kinda like asking a cowboy, how come ?, no cab on the horse .
The KISS principal, ( Keep It Simple Stupid , Principal )still applies today.
Have basic tools, such as a hand shovel have a computer on it ? No !
If you have a floating air ride cab, then you would feel no bumps and would not slow down !
If you feel the pain, and slow down , then the machine is saved from abuse , and lasts a lot longer , just like your body !
That's kinda like asking a cowboy, how come ?, no cab on the horse .
The KISS principal, ( Keep It Simple Stupid , Principal )still applies today.
Have basic tools, such as a hand shovel have a computer on it ? No !
If you have a floating air ride cab, then you would feel no bumps and would not slow down !
If you feel the pain, and slow down , then the machine is saved from abuse , and lasts a lot longer , just like your body !
curly
Well-Known Member
I think the bigger issue is that at least I have not seen a new scrapper, always see some POS Terex scrapper.
JimBruce42
Senior Member
If it aint broke, don't fix it:cool2
Seriously though, even though I've not set foot in a self propelled scraper, I can tell you just by looking at brochure, etc... that the cabs are a lot more user friendly... I wouldn't be surprised if the new ones do have air ride seats, they went from three controls to a joystick, heat, A/C, CD player AM/FM radio.... Newer engine, hydraulic, transmission technology. Alan is right though, the basic layout hasn't changed, cause really, does it need to?:beatsme
Seriously though, even though I've not set foot in a self propelled scraper, I can tell you just by looking at brochure, etc... that the cabs are a lot more user friendly... I wouldn't be surprised if the new ones do have air ride seats, they went from three controls to a joystick, heat, A/C, CD player AM/FM radio.... Newer engine, hydraulic, transmission technology. Alan is right though, the basic layout hasn't changed, cause really, does it need to?:beatsme
Turbo21835
Senior Member
Scrapers are simple, Stuff as much dirt in between two engines and move it as fast as you can. Im not sure what you can really change from that. The new G series Cats have sloped sheet metal, a lot better than the Es and Fs. As for the single joystick control like Jimi mentioned. They can take that pile of crap and get rid of it. Gimme back 3 sticks with an apron trigger on the bowl lever, it worked just fine.
Burnout
Senior Member
There has been a huge change in scrapers. At the last RB auction I got to see a 627G sitting beside a TS14B. The basic layout is the same but the design has proved itself. Most other equipment hasn't changed much in the last 30-40yrs. Look at excavators, other than pilot controls what's changed in the last 25 years? Still 2 sticks, engine behind you and bucket off to the side a bit. Performance is what's changed.
That being said... Sureway has had the new 627H for the last year or so I believe. I have talked to the operator who was running it and he was able to give me some information on it. SUSPENSION has finally made its way into a scraper. I heard the rumor the 657H was running around on a site somewhere but haven't heard much more from the Sureway guys.
That being said... Sureway has had the new 627H for the last year or so I believe. I have talked to the operator who was running it and he was able to give me some information on it. SUSPENSION has finally made its way into a scraper. I heard the rumor the 657H was running around on a site somewhere but haven't heard much more from the Sureway guys.
Turbo21835
Senior Member
Man, suspension? More parts to break. Cushion hitches dont last very long. Although cushion hitches were not made to improve the ride, they were made to keep the gooseneck in one piece
Have you guys forgotten our friend hdtruck has a revolutionary new design in the works?:naughty
DPete
Senior Member
There's only so much you can redesign on a wheel borrow, I have a recently aquired 2000 623F aside from the air seat, pilot controls dash, and cab insulation the major changes are a redesigned scraper ( same as the current G's) the upper elevator frame support was moved to the outside of the bowl and we can finally change rear tires without removing the wheel ( don't know why that took so long on the 623's) Chain adjustment is by grease gun instead if raising the idlers manually.
DPete
Senior Member
Interesting, DPete. Much easier to service.
If you guys want to see innovation, look at farm equipment.
Since the 1960s, tractors went from 2WD to 4WD, average power has gone from 100HP to 450HP. The old cabs didn't even have air conditioning. Now they have air CD players, GPS, powershift transmissions, electronic hydraulics and way, way more comfort.
Combines have changed too. In the late 60s, combines had gas engines, 100HP, 100 bushel hoppers, etc. Now they have 300 bushel hoppers, 300 HP, 30+ foot headers, auto speed control, etc.
If you guys want to see innovation, look at farm equipment.
Since the 1960s, tractors went from 2WD to 4WD, average power has gone from 100HP to 450HP. The old cabs didn't even have air conditioning. Now they have air CD players, GPS, powershift transmissions, electronic hydraulics and way, way more comfort.
Combines have changed too. In the late 60s, combines had gas engines, 100HP, 100 bushel hoppers, etc. Now they have 300 bushel hoppers, 300 HP, 30+ foot headers, auto speed control, etc.
DPete
Senior Member
Good question, I don't see any way to adjust for different size tires but I'll find out. There's a ring of bolts where the axle bolts to the frame, it may be an eccentric type adjustment. I'll let you know what I find out.Just got off the phone with Quinn's shop super, according to him there is no adjustment. Try to match tires the best you can plus a little air pressure adjustment.
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Construct'O
Senior Member
How the new scraper working out for you? Have you gotten much work for it or is things still slow.
Do you miss the 8's and scraper? What are you using for dozers not.Just wondering.:usa
Sounds like no more buying new drivers then putting the 50% used drives on the back. The drive tires never wear quite even. Now you need a matched set. The tire pressure thing only works some, lets you lean more and more as the can fills up.
I agree its nice to change the tire, but the adjustment made life better in a lot of ways.
Many of the younger generation do not want to work that hard to get things right, so the adjustment is probably lost on many of them.
I agree its nice to change the tire, but the adjustment made life better in a lot of ways.
Many of the younger generation do not want to work that hard to get things right, so the adjustment is probably lost on many of them.
DPete
Senior Member
Haven't had it on a job yet, not much doing here. I'm supposed to be helping with both 623's on a water treatment job but they keep pushing the date back because of permit issues. Now they say Feb. Have not needed a dozer either, the 8K's are still in my yard I could rent one back if needed. I saw an 07' D6R EROPS, 6s, ripper , sweeps & screens W/ 960 hours go for $170K at Ritchie Bros. Not going to take that step until work opens up. Gettin good at sittin on butt