Best bang for buck scraper ?

[Someguy]

So what is the least expensive way to move dirt these day ? Say for highway and overpass projects ?

I've been looking at ag tractors and pull scrapers, but you guys (and other seasoned veterans) don't seem to give them much credit.

We can't afford new Cat scrapers. So what is one to do ?

There seems to be a lot of old(er) iron around. Who knows how many hours they have on them.

Should a guy buy something like that and fix ? Its like making a deal with the devil. One 621 advertised in the Machinery Trader has had $172,000 in work done in the last 3500 hours. That is $50 an hour for upkeep ! Yikes !

Other than engines and transmissions, what wears out and breaks on a scraper ?

What is the best way to handle scraper purchases ? Buy new ? Buy junk and totally rebuild it ? Something in between ?

Thanks

 

[alan627b]

The word of wisdom is... whatever vehicle you buy, you are money ahead to buy the best one you can afford. Buying junk only works if you have way more time than money, a huge parts pile at your disposal, a fully stocked machine shop and the skills to use all the tools.
Having said that,I wish i could say I follow my own advice! Probably why my car, and both my Cats are a long way from usable.
And it is different if you are buying something for hobby use, or actually intend to earn a living with it.
The people I work for frequently have bought used and abused scrapers cheap, then dump a ton of money and time into them, to get a machine that still has questionable reliability.
Why they don't spend more initially to have a machine they can put to work immediately I have never understood.
Whatever you decide, choose wisely, and check everything carefully. Know your limitations.
Check Machinerytrader.com and compare the prices for a piece of machinery, you can usually figure out why two of the same model sell for vastly different prices.
"Off brand" scrapers may be cheaper, but parts availablility may be difficult. Cat, terex and Deere are probably your best bets.
Good luck to you!
alan627b

 

[alan627b]

Wear parts on motor scrapers.
Tires
Cutting edges, slobber bits, rollers and roller channels. Floors and side plating.
Control levers and valving.
Hitches. Assuming no one has run it so long the bushings are gone and the castings need work, you are still looking at $10,000 plus if the dealer does a bushing and pin replacement. Costs go up if the castings are bad, the goosneck is cracked, etc.
If someone has run it a long time with a worn out cutting edge, the frog itself and/or the floor may need work. Trunnion balls which the draft arms bolt to wear out, as do the caps themselves. I think just a pair of balls cost $180 a pair, last time the one I ran needed them.
Hoses and electrical harnesses are frequently damaged.
It's not hard as you'd think to spring an ejector cylinder rod, or beat the packing out of any cylinder. Get some yahoo who runs around with the lip open and the ejector ahead, takes very little time at all. Or loads with the ejector ahead and a slab falls over the back. Or overloads and tears all the wiring or hoses off the draft arms.
Etc, etc.....
alan627b

 

[Someguy]

This is a for profit venture.

We don't have any spare scraper parts.

Has anyone run a TS14G ? Are they pretty reliable ?

 

[Someguy]

This is where I start thinking pan scrapers and a tractor look good. I can buy pretty much new pan scrapers for $25K each. Not quite as heavy as a 14 bowl, but at least they are new. New cylinders, new cutting edges, new hoses, new tires. What is not to like ?

All I need is a good 600 HP tractor.

But, I can't help but notice that people are discussing operators still running Cat 666s. How old are they ? How many thousands of hours do they have on them ? Obviously there is some merit to running old equipment and keeping it up.

 

[alan627b]

Let's put it this way, the last 3 axle scraper was a 650B, and came out of the factory in 1978. These 666's are considerably older. Anybody running these today has probably got quite a backlot of parts machines, a good mechanical force, and a well equipped shop. I believe the latest 660 pictured are repowered by Detroit Diesel engines. Those quad cam Cat engines are probably getting hard to find parts for, and harder to make pass emissions in California where they are being used.
The reason they are still around is they still excel at what they were built for, bulk dirt moving. The closest thing anybody builds to them now is the
657G, and I'd hate to guess what 1 costs right now. You could probably buy a lot of these old units for what 1 new one costs, and they still have a bigger bowl than anything else made today. If you've got the shop force to keep them going.
I think the term is Economics of Scale.
The more dirt you move per load, the less it costs per yard.
I'm probably preaching to the choir here. Sorry!
About 8 of these sold last year in Arizona and Las Vegas, 660's or converted 666's to single engines, and the ones I saw were usable but far from mint condition. The most expensive of the 4 I saw sold for $16,000.
Talk about depreciation!
alan627b

 

[alan627b]

A friend of mine has his own company, and is using either Challengers and cans, or trucks and backhoes depending on the job.
He tried out some TS14G's last year, said they were noisy, lacking in power and didn't ride that well.
Only input I've got there. Specs http://www.transdiesel.com/Files/TS14G.pdf
Cat is smart keeping the patents up on that cushion hitch!
I wouldn't be surprised if some of the 627's I run have 100,000 frame hours on them. The best thing about the older models like this is that they are mechanically simple compared to the heavily electronic and computerized E through G models. Probably why they like them.
I'd say your choice on what to buy partially depends on the length of your haul, soil type in your area, and the grades you have to climb. And whether or not you can find 2 operators who can work together, because you can move a lot with a good push-pull team. And a good finish scraper hand can eliminate the need for a lot of support equipment. Hope this is of some value to you.
alan627b

 

[lancef]

Have you looked at the economics of hireing one.Saves on capital outlay and when jobs done give it back.A lot of peoples doing here in New Zealand.Just a thought.

 

[WabcoMan]

The cheapest way to move dirt with a motor scraper is with a TS-14.
It may not be the most comfortable, but its the cheapest.

 

[Turbo21835]

The cheapest way to move dirt with a motor scraper is with a TS-14.
It may not be the most comfortable, but its the cheapest.

A man who knows how to move dirt. I was headed this way to add my 2 cents.

Lets be honest, its not possible for a small contractor to justify spending 1 million dollars on two Cat 627Gs. Not to mention the support equipment needed. Two Terex TS-14Bs will run you roughly 80-150k. They are terribly simple. Parts are cheap, so cheap that most companies keep a set on transmissions a front and rear engine on standby. Not saying you will need them in a two scraper operation. The company I worked for had 20+.

They are so simple. We had a rear engine go on us. This was at 8am. Our shop sent a mechanic, he determined that we needed a new engine. He started taking things apart. At 11:30 he was ready to pull the engine out. The shop sent a parts runner with an engine that had a fresh rebuild. By 3pm that TS-14 was up and moving dirt. You will never get that with a Cat scraper. You would be lucky to find an engine in 7 hours, let alone swap em out. A good mechanic that knows his Detroits can make a lot of power out of the engines.

Most of the time our crews consisted of two scrapers, a push cat, a finish cat, and an 815 or other compactor. Didnt matter if it was a TS-14 crew, or a 627 crew. There were many jobs where a 14 crew and 627 crew were working at the same time. With two good operators, a little planning, and a hard working crew, we would move the same yardage that the 627 crew was moving. Not to mention, our Detroits burned less fuel than the 27s. Our D7 and D5 burned less than the 8 and 6 that came with the 27s. If we broke one of our scrapers, the repair was usually quick, no waiting on cat for parts.

Get a set of Green Weenies, a couple good operators, and you will make good money. Before fuel prices skyrocketed we were moving topsoil for .89 cents a yard. Cut to fill was usually around .93 cents a yard, and that included the 815 on the two ts14s tab.

 

[KMB83]

just a curiousity. assuming average care, operator, and soil.... how many honest hours on the key components of a scraper last? some of the older scrapers have tons of hours on them. is this something to be scared of?

 

[alan627b]

Our mechanics routinely pull a rear pack out of a 627B in under 2 hours. A front engine takes a bit longer. Disconnect the drive coupling, unscrew the wiring harnesses, pull a fuel line, and the engine and trans come out together. It can be done with 2 guys in a lot less than 2 hours.
And we usually have several 3306 front engines and rear packs ready to go. It's the only way to do things if you have a fleet of old iron.
Of course, they have had to do the swap enough times they have it down to a science!
I think a pair of 627B's would come in about the same money as a pair of TS14B's, and parts availablility is no problem either, we usually don't have to wait much more than overnight on Cat parts. Depending on what it is, of course.
I'm not sure if we have a Terex dealer in Omaha anymore.
The real problem on either brand will be when you get into the newer, more complex later model scrapers. A 627E is quite a bit more complex than a B is, and it gets worse the newer you get.
627A and B models, and TS14 A and B models are both proven performers.
It just took Terex a little longer to modernize their designs, doesn't the 14B still have a cable to lift the lip?
alan627b

 

[Someguy]

Very interesting comments on the TS14s. Seems a lot of people scoff at them, but yet when the job gets serious they are a good machine.

Anyone want to comment on which TS14 models to seek or avoid ? I think the newer models have Int 466s in them. Are they good machines ?

What about the real old ones ? Would you buy one of them and drop in new engines and transmissions ?

If a pair of TS14s moves as much dirt as a pair of 627s, why do people run 627s ?

What about TS24s or TS18s ?

Thanks for all the input !

 

[buddy605]

buy a 6 X6 truck it is less headache and is more versitile.

 

[stumpjumper83]

From what I ran, you wanna stay with a ts-14b. Detroit powered. My old employed had 6 g's and they were always working on them. Electronic issues, underpowered a/c's, some drivetrain problems... By contrast, the b's stayed working more often even if they had more hours and green operators.

 

[Buckethead]

buy a 6 X6 truck it is less headache and is more versitile.

If it's wet or rocky end dumps are a productive way to go. But a truck can't self load, it needs an excavator to load it at all times. And trucks can't grade they need a dozer all the time on the fill. Different conditions are conducive to different equipment. A lot of big dirt contractors I know of use both end dumps and "pans", depending on what they think will be the most productive. Just my 2 cents. :drinkup

 

[637slayer]

i have thought about this for years, usually when ive had a bad day, gotten my ass chewed by a boss, "ya i could get my own scraper and do this for myself" it never happened. hands down it would be a 627b, they are light and maneauverable quick loading fast moving you can road them with an oversized load sign on them in most states. with some shopping you could pick a good one up for around 50,000. remember, they paint terrexs green so they can hide in the weeds when the cats come by.

 

[Someguy]

buy a 6 X6 truck it is less headache and is more versitile.

But how do you load them ? With a hoe or a loader ? I've never seen road built that way.

 

[Someguy]

Very interesting discussion guys. Keep it coming. I have no experience with this stuff.

 

[Someguy]

Question: what the heck are all the lines on the gooseneck for on a 627 ?

http://www.machinerytrader.com/list...6604260&GUID=17a8fbbcaa7b4302a14e1b6227c3ef1f

What would it cost to totally rebuild a 627 ? An old one costs $25K. A new one costs $650K. Wouldn't $150K do a lot of work on a 627 ?

These ads are hilarious. I like how the ad for the 1967 627 says "USED". That's funny. Even better are the ones that say "recently painted" and you look at the picture and there is rust everywhere. I wonder what it looked like before it was painted ?

A 2007 627 with 2000ish hours on it is listed for $650K. A 2006 627 with 4000 hours on it lists for $350K. I have 2 observations from this:

1) If a 2006 scraper has 4000 hours on it, how many hours does a 1973 model have ?

2) The 4,000 hour machine is listed for $300K less. $300K/2000 hours = $150/hour for depreciation ! That seems a little expensive !