Best bang for buck scraper ?

[alan627b]

Q1) Lines over the hitch include ejector, 2 bowl lift cylinders and apron. Some functions have a send and a return or bypass line. Some are for the cushion hitch cylinder. Air lines for the rear brakes, and rear throttle if equipped with a second engine. Electrical wiring to send the signal from the tractor transmission to the rear shift controller, and send and recieve from signals from various sensors. Remote rear start/shutdown on some scrapers.
6 of them are criss-crossed to allow the pivot movement of the hitch, or they 'd have to have an impossible amount of slack to allow turning. Might have a fuel send and return line, some may not have rear fuel tanks anymore.
2) Costs of used units depends greatly on the number of hours the unit has, the general condition of the unit, how it is equipped, whether or not it has push-pull equipment, as these units have additonal reinforcement in the structure for this application.
A unit used in rock or abrasive material will wear out much faster than a Midwest machine primarily used in clay, and will be worth less.
Cost also depends on the amount of new components included.
For example, a new set of tires for a 627 will run about $20,000 depending on what brand and quality you buy, radial or not, etc.
3) "New Paint" can mean "You should have seen waht an eyesore it was before we steamed all the crud off and took it to Earl Sheibs" and bondoe'd the sides of the bowl...don't laugh, I've seen it....paint and ArmorAll hide a lot.
Beware the Dupont overhaul.....
4) A 1974 627B could possibly have 100,000 frame hours on it. Don't believe an hour meter, they get replaced too. 5000 hours might mean "since the last time it was in the shop".
Buyer beware....
alan627b

 

[EZ TRBO]

what bout the self loaders

Maybe I just got with the wrong 14's but any time we rented one or worked with another contractor with one we could run circles around it with our John Deere 860 self loader. The 14's were nice when you got into rock, lil easier to load without worrying bout the eleavator but in dirt I would load faster and could lay it down all broke up and in smaller lifts, making less work for the dozer operator.

With a self loader you do have more moving parts to worry bout and wear out. We always ran teeth on our cutting edge and you had to make sure you looked UNDER them as depending what kinda of material you were in would wear the bottoms right out of them and start into the shanks. Elevator itself took a lot of beating and bouncing. However we could usually go 1000 hours or better before having to tighten it up. Once you worked the idlers to the top, you just took out a half link and started over. Slides on the bottom bowl also wore out fast and if not replaced would allow the bottom to obtain play which could cause it to twist and break the slides and usually twist the yoke in the back of the machine.

Our 860 is a 1970 model, so its had some years on it. We have pretty much repalced everything at one time or more. However, Transmission and Tourqe Convertor were both re-built for the first time in 2004(TC has been out TWICE more since, note to self NEVER send things to Palmer Johnson Compaines AGAIN). The "rear end"(which is actually the front) has only been removed ONCE, a few years ago for a broken sun gear(see front diff removal pics).

Honestly, even for all the work we have had to do on it in the years, it has been a very good machine for us, we just kept it too much longer than we should have. Got to a point that "well we spent 10K on this, so we kinda have to spend another 8 K here to keep it running". For us(two dozers and the scraper) it was a wonderful way to move dirt for years. Company I work for right now, I use an excavator and haul trucks to strip quarries and most days I know I could do it faster with less man power if I just had a scraper back.

Trbo

 

[Meangreen]

For a small contractor, you can't go wrong with TS-14's. They'll work in mud, rock and good dirt too. Simple design, easy to work on and cheap to operate. I ran them for 30 years. We able to do things with them you wouldn't believe and wouldn't dare do with any other pan.

When I was very young, every big grading company had a couple or more of the TS-14's and maybe a green dozer or two. They'd put inexperienced drivers and cowboys on them, people that hated them and send them out front to do the dirty, rough work in the most extreme conditions to prepare the way for and save their CAT equipment. The drivers didn't want to drive them, the mechanics didn't want to work on them and the service men didn't want to service them. But despite all that they always seemed ready to go again the next day. I told my father, "I'm going to buy me some of those darn green things one of these days." He didn't like green machines either, but I told him, "I've never seen equipment so despised, so hated and so mistreated as this stuff and it just keeps coming back for more day after day."

 

[Someguy]

How much are spare engines and transmissions for TS14s and 627s ?

There are a ton of 627s in the $30-$50K range and lots of TS14s even cheaper than that.

Would you repower the TS14s with Cummins 5.9s ?

Which transmissions give more trouble, the Allisons in the TS14s or the Cats in the 627 ? Which has stronger differentials ?

I hate to ask, but which machine will move more dirt in an hour ? The 627 seems to have a capacity advantage ?

If you bought one of these machines used, what would you do on it before you started working it ?

 

[Meangreen]

I'd like to add something. A couple of times I rented some extra TS-14's. They were always weak compared to my TS-14's. I checked them and some others that other people rented. I found that places that rented them out usually set the no-load RPM's at around 1900. The no-load RPM's were supposed to be set at 2250. I set all my TS-14's at 2450. It really makes a difference in performance with no real added hardship on the engines or transmissions.

In good soil, keep the 2 center cutting bits 4" to 6" below the outer 2 bits and they'll load themselves before a pusher can catch up. Run one machine with a straight edge and one with the center dropped to the extreme. Make 2 passes with the drop center and then start making passes with the straight edge. The straight edge machine picks up the ridge left between the 2 deep "ruts" thus keeping the cut area a little smoother and loading itself just as quickly.

 

[Someguy]

Q1) Lines over the hitch include ejector, 2 bowl lift cylinders and apron. Some functions have a send and a return or bypass line. Some are for the cushion hitch cylinder. Air lines for the rear brakes, and rear throttle if equipped with a second engine. Electrical wiring to send the signal from the tractor transmission to the rear shift controller, and send and recieve from signals from various sensors. Remote rear start/shutdown on some scrapers.
6 of them are criss-crossed to allow the pivot movement of the hitch, or they 'd have to have an impossible amount of slack to allow turning. Might have a fuel send and return line, some may not have rear fuel tanks anymore.

How much trouble does this stuff give because of all the twisting and chaffing ? How often does a scraper blow a hydraulic line ?

4) A 1974 627B could possibly have 100,000 frame hours on it.

At what point are these machines just scrap iron ? Is it worth it to buy an older machine and do a complete end to end overhaul ? Wouldn't you have a great machine if you did that ?

Thanks for your answers, Alan. You've been a big help.

I don't know what to say about the self loading JDs.

 

[Meangreen]

How much are spare engines and transmissions for TS14s and 627s ?
--------------------------
10 years ago I was getting dealer rebuilt out of frame and warranteed engines for $4,500 to $6,000 and 6-speed transmissions for $3,000 if just worn out to $5,500 if torn up.

We'd do a couple of in-frame rebuilds on engines we knew between out of frame rebuilds. Those rebuilds cost less than $2,000 and could be as cheap as $1,200 according to how much 'head' work was needed.

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There are a ton of 627s in the $30-$50K range and lots of TS14s even cheaper than that.
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Yes.....but I'm biased, I'd buy the TS-14
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Would you repower the TS14s with Cummins 5.9s ?
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I don't know enough about the Cummins to make a recommendation. You'll have compare horse power and RPM's to the 471 detroits and make up your own mind on that question.
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Which transmissions give more trouble, the Allisons in the TS14s or the Cats in the 627 ? Which has stronger differentials ?
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I honestly don't know. We didn't have a lot of transission problems because we kept the engine RPM's and transmission shifting synchronized.....very important on any twin engine scraper.

Had one rearend go out in 30 years and never had a planetary failure.
---------------------------------

I hate to ask, but which machine will move more dirt in an hour ? The 627 seems to have a capacity advantage ?
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Probably the 627 on a long haul or rough haul road if it has the cushion hitch.

Size wise, I think they're both about the same. 14 yds struck and 20/22 heaped.

Someone else will may have to correct me here but the 627 has about a 100 horses per end advantage over the TS-14 so it should do more. If you want to compare a 627 to it's closest TEREX equal that would be a TS-18 which is bigger (18 yds struck) and a lot more powerful......but I would never own a TS-18 and as I said before, I'm biased.
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If you bought one of these machines used, what would you do on it before you started working it ?

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Fix any leaking hyd. cylinders, replace any bad looking hoses, you know, misc. little stuff and then put it to work. "FIX", and I mean "FIX"(rebuild) what tears up when it tears up.....or just before is better if you can catch it.

Look for cracks in the neck. If you have to weld up some cracks on the neck, use a LH 110-18 welding rod or similar wire (preheat and slow cool is the proper way....but just V-ing it out and welding it up works too). Stick your head in between the frame and rear tire, (on both sides) look down at the bottom of the frame, a crack in the corner there is usual, fix and take a look every once in a while just to check on it. Check the roller on the dump arm and the 'thing' it rolls on while you have your head in there while on the left side. Check the blocks the dump rest on and the 'stops' in front (inside bowl) of it, buildup or repair as needed. If it's operating when you buy it, run it, these are things you can do on rainy days or between jobs.

....oh, and the steering has a flow reversing valve. It won't work right if the bushings in the steering cylinders are worn out. The machine will point at about 45 degrees and then seem not to want to swing on around are be slow to straighten up after a sharp turn. Rock the steering wheel and watch the cylinder ends to see how much play they have. The bushings are cheap and easy to replace.

 

[Meangreen]

OOOPS! Old dog ain't learning new tricks to well......LOL

 

[Someguy]

OOOPS! Old dog ain't learning new tricks to well......LOL

What do you mean by that ?

Why wouldn't you own a TS18 ?

Cummins 5.9 engines are bulletproof and cheap. So are the 8.3s. The new TS14Gs are powered by IH466s. They are also a pretty good engine.

It seems like engines and transmissions are the main failure components on TS14s. The rest of the stuff is mainly maintenance, except if you blow a hydraulic hose.

Transmissions seem to be the weak link in all HD equipment. I wonder if one could run a 10 speed autoshift transmission like they use in highway trucks. No clutch packs !

 

[Meangreen]

What do you mean by that ?

Why wouldn't you own a TS18 ?

Cummins 5.9 engines are bulletproof and cheap. So are the 8.3s. The new TS14Gs are powered by IH466s. They are also a pretty good engine.

It seems like engines and transmissions are the main failure components on TS14s. The rest of the stuff is mainly maintenance, except if you blow a hydraulic hose.

Transmissions seem to be the weak link in all HD equipment. I wonder if one could run a 10 speed autoshift transmission like they use in highway trucks. No clutch packs !

I answered most of your questions as best I could up in the quote area in my reply. Then the last was in ...black at the bottom. I don't know how to subdivide it like these other fellows...........yet.

As for the TS-18 and why I wouldn't own one. You're feeding and maintaining 6 more cylinders in the engines for just 4 more yards of material. The early transmissions gave more trouble and they had small planetaries which I've been told gave some problems.

In the beginning.....seems I've heard that somewhere before......I ran a couple of S-12 EUCLID straight drives with the old 2-valve 671's in them. They rode better, used less fuel and would out run a TS-14 on a haul but you had to push load them. ....and it cost just as much or more to rebuild the transmissions. I still had one left up until the mid-90's that I'd drive every now and then. It would get the 14 drivers goat for me to pull out and pass them.....LOL ...and it was one of those that had the seat mounted on a 12" piece of pipe. OOOPS. I forgot about the little S-7's I had. Cute little pans, fun to drive and almost indestructable, just didn't move enough dirt.

The old straight drive EUC's had air assist on the clutchs and an air stop brake in the transmission so you could speed shift them....If everything was working right. Otherwise you had to 2-clutch it or use engine rpm's to shift. Where would you find a driver today that could do that.

 

[Someguy]

I answered most of your questions as best I could up in the quote area in my reply. Then the last was in ...black at the bottom. I don't know how to subdivide it like these other fellows...........yet.

If you reply to someone's message, you can see how to end a quote. You use [ / quote ] without the spaces. I had to put the spaces in or it thinks I am ending a quote. And then to start a new quote, you use [ quote ] without the spaces.

I teach you about computer and internet stuff and you teach me about scrapers, OK ?

As for the TS-18 and why I wouldn't own one. You're feeding and maintaining 6 more cylinders in the engines for just 4 more yards of material. The early transmissions gave more trouble and they had small planetaries which I've been told gave some problems.

OK. I can understand that. Did they have the same diffs as the TS14 ?

In the beginning.....seems I've heard that somewhere before......I ran a couple of S-12 EUCLID straight drives with the old 2-valve 671's in them. They rode better, used less fuel and would out run a TS-14 on a haul but you had to push load them. ....and it cost just as much or more to rebuild the transmissions.

Transmissions and engines... transmissions and engines. Scrapers seem to go through transmissions and engines like crazy.

I still had one left up until the mid-90's that I'd drive every now and then. It would get the 14 drivers goat for me to pull out and pass them.....LOL ...and it was one of those that had the seat mounted on a 12" piece of pipe. OOOPS.

Ouch !

The old straight drive EUC's had air assist on the clutchs and an air stop brake in the transmission so you could speed shift them....If everything was working right. Otherwise you had to 2-clutch it or use engine rpm's to shift. Where would you find a driver today that could do that.

Now that is interesting. Why couldn't a guy use an Eaton Autoshift transmission. They autoshift in a truck, why wouldn't they autoshift in a scraper ? As long as it wasn't while cutting.

I'm comparing TS14s to 627s. The 627s are a lot heavier and they have a lot more power. They also have the cushion hitch. Do they self load better ? Do they burn more fuel ?

TS14 engines are rated at 175HP each. Would the differentials stand up if you put 250HP on them ?

Does anyone know what the differences are between the various 627 versions ? A/B... G ?

Thanks

 

[Meangreen]

Back in the 70's, the CAT dealer used to push selling 627's, can't blame them for trying to sell something. If they had a customer torn between a new TS-14B and a 627, they'd rent a TS-14 from someone and demo it against a 627. Of course the 14 was outclassed, it was usually detuned as I've said before plus it was already about 100 horses short. If they wanted to make a fair comparicson, they should have used a TS-18.

As I told a fellow once that had several 627's with the cushion hitches, "You got some nice race horses there. I just got some old plow mules." Now are you into horse racing or working a farm. That about sums up any comparison between the two. One requires better feed and treatment, the other will get the job done on less with less.

We mostly did small yardage jobs, 10 to 30 thousand yards. Streets, roads, farm ponds, poultry barns, farm work, residential, commercial and some industrial grading jobs, only a couple over 100 thousand yards. We worked in soils from dead sugar sand to hard rock. Sugar sand is where a single engine machine couldn't and wouldn't go empty even. We'd have to double up the push tractors sometimes, jam the bowl down deep as it would go and then pump it a couple of times to top it out. Sugar sand is when you pray for rain, all day, everyday, until the jobs complete.

I see some people fussing about the cable operated aprons (lip of the bowl) and not being able to dump sticky stuff or just regular dirt for that matter. The aprons would stand straight up out of the way if the cables were cut the right length and installed properly. To long and they don't open all the way, to short and it won't shut all the way unless you pick the bowl up all the way.....which by that time you've lost half your load.

I have seen some TS-14's that were modified by (I guess) the owners with a 671 in the front. The old 671's were rated at 238 hp.. These were a little spunkier than the normal 471 powered ones with, I was told, no added problems.

 

[WabcoMan]

627's vs TS-14's

One thing you have to consider here is tires and their cost.

Although a 627 has more horsepower than a TS-14, it's also a lot harder on tires.
In the hands of an inexperienced operator, a 627 will shred a set of rear tires faster than you can open your wallet to pay for a new pair.

Don't buy a TS-18 - they are not one of Terex's better scrapers.

The TS-24's were very reliable but you need all sots of permits to shift them from job to job - always on a trailer.
Operating costs for a TS-24 are also higher but they will shift a lot of dirt.
The 24B's are more complicated than the older models.

Terex got it right with the TS-14 (especially the TS-14B) despite what all the Cat lovers may tell you, and they remain the cheapest way to shift a yard or two with a motor scraper.ointhead

 

[Someguy]

I can't believe I am reading that the TS14s are such good machines. I thought everyone here would be pro Cat.

What special care do the 627s need that the TS14s don't ?

What is the hourly rate for a TS14 or 627 on a contract ? Do they charge out the same rate ?

 

[Someguy]

Would the differentials on a TS14 live if the engines were swapped with 250HP models ? How much power did the 6-71s make that were sometimes swapped into TS14s in place of the 4-71s ? If a 4-71 was 175 HP, the 6 -71 should be 175x1.5 = 262 HP.

It looks like $50K buys a mid to late 70s 627, whereas $50K buys a late 1980s TS14B.

I'm surprised the Cat people aren't screaming bloody murder...

 

[Someguy]

How can a TS14 with 350HP keep up with a 627 with over 500 HP ? The TS14 weighs a lot less. Does its light weight make up the HP difference ?

How could a TS 14 load anywhere near as fast as a 627 with so much less weight and power ?

Sorry for all the questions. I'm just trying to learn.

 

[pactractor]

Rent Rent Rent

 

[ronnie]

I answered most of your questions as best I could up in the quote area in my reply. Then the last was in ...black at the bottom. I don't know how to subdivide it like these other fellows...........yet.

As for the TS-18 and why I wouldn't own one. You're feeding and maintaining 6 more cylinders in the engines for just 4 more yards of material. The early transmissions gave more trouble and they had small planetaries which I've been told gave some problems.

In the beginning.....seems I've heard that somewhere before......I ran a couple of S-12 EUCLID straight drives with the old 2-valve 671's in them. They rode better, used less fuel and would out run a TS-14 on a haul but you had to push load them. ....and it cost just as much or more to rebuild the transmissions. I still had one left up until the mid-90's that I'd drive every now and then. It would get the 14 drivers goat for me to pull out and pass them.....LOL ...and it was one of those that had the seat mounted on a 12" piece of pipe. OOOPS. I forgot about the little S-7's I had. Cute little pans, fun to drive and almost indestructable, just didn't move enough dirt.

The old straight drive EUC's had air assist on the clutchs and an air stop brake in the transmission so you could speed shift them....If everything was working right. Otherwise you had to 2-clutch it or use engine rpm's to shift. Where would you find a driver today that could do that.

i know where 2 s-12's are and still in decent shape 1 powershift and 1 direct drive some of the cat 619's were direct drive we shifted them same as a tractor trailer the only thing was reverse it was on a small lever near the 2 levers that worked the bowl you pulled it back then pushed it to your right but you had to be stoped to get it in gear i ran power glide's long before i got the chance to try that thing out and not to bad after you get used to it

 

[Texasgary]

619 dw 21

i know where 2 s-12's are and still in decent shape 1 powershift and 1 direct drive some of the cat 619's were direct drive we shifted them same as a tractor trailer the only thing was reverse it was on a small lever near the 2 levers that worked the bowl you pulled it back then pushed it to your right but you had to be stoped to get it in gear i ran power glide's long before i got the chance to try that thing out and not to bad after you get used to it

You bring back old thoughts, on running scrapers,
I do not think there is a scraper I have not tried out. The worst one was that electric, I forgot the name ( OLD AGE I AM 70 ) everything was electric steering, sometimes the steering would lock up, so I would throw in the clutch and step on the throttle and hope the steering would kick in. I run the s 7 s12 s18 s24 they were a back breaker as they had like a little spring for a shock absorber. I remember the 619 cat scrapers and when I wanted to shift fast, you woul grab the hoist leaver when you were shifting and when you hit nutral hit the hoist lever and it would go right into gear, it was like speed shifting. The TS 24 and TS 14 to many electic problems, to much down time.
What I liked about scrapers was how fast you could move dirt and build road.When you run scraper always travel with a low bowl for SAFTY because if something happens with the scraper, you can drop it for a brake or if you go of the road your bowl will dig in. I remember many years ago on a dam job and it was very Hi ball, a guy pulled over to have a crap and did not drop his bowl to the ground, and climbed back on to his load in the dirt to have a dump, well you know what happened, he just stated to get relaxed and have his crap and the scraper took off, with him trying to get his pants up. The scraper got wrote off and he jumped off or got thrown off. So always get your bowl on to the ground before you get off. Have a great day you guys, I love this form.

 

[Buckethead]

Gary was that electric scraper a Wabco?