CAT 963 - Right Machine?

[CM1995]

What is the compaction rate for clay, 3 to 1 or 4 to 1 or something like that?

What type of clay? Silty, sandy, lean, fat? Shrink/swell factors vary on the type of clay.

 

[DMiller]

Clay can be unforgiving especially if hit Blue or Hydraulic clay. As I have seen can expand as much as compaction rate just by digging up where 9000yds triples to end up with a finished grade.

 

[CM1995]

There is a long bed of limestone pinnacles with some of the nastiest yellow fat clay that runs through Birmingham. The clay is the color of yellow Play Dough with the consistency just a little wetter.

Makes for interesting site prep as the clay has to be removed and the rock either blasted or hammered then structural fill to subgrade. This clay material keeps the shape of the bucket and it's heavy. I figure 6-8 CY per 18 CY tri-axle on haul off depending on how wet it is.

The deep foundation companies have a money printing machine as all drilled piers are by the foot and concrete by the yard. It's not uncommon to hit voids in the limestone and dump 200-300 CY of concrete in the void to fill it. Easy money for the foundation company and redimix outfit just back up and dump it in the tremie.

 

[skyking1]

That clay, yuck. I have a brown that is similar in consistency here. This is a pic of me cutting it for that loading dock at work. I could not set the bucket down on it, that is for sure.


It will hold water but it too gooey for a pond liner job, unless you hoe placed it and backed your way out of the job. It defeats narrow buckets by not releasing.
It took a while to clean up the truck bed afterwords.

 

[bam1968]

Obviously every job is different. I bid on a dam a few months ago. I came in 2nd at @ $92,000. Low bid was $88,000. IIRC it called for @ 20,000 yds of fill but not nearly as many trees as yours and was shallow and wide creek bed. The bid included everything except for tearing out a little bit of fence. Just thought I would give you a little something to refer to.

 

[CM1995]

Obviously every job is different. I bid on a dam a few months ago. I came in 2nd at @ $92,000. Low bid was $88,000. IIRC it called for @ 20,000 yds of fill but not nearly as many trees as yours and was shallow and wide creek bed. The bid included everything except for tearing out a little bit of fence. Just thought I would give you a little something to refer to.

That's pretty tight on the bid. Sucks when you loose one that close.

Did that include a spillway(s) and/or outlet pipe?

 

[bam1968]

That's pretty tight on the bid. Sucks when you loose one that close.

Did that include a spillway(s) and/or outlet pipe?

Yes, it does suck....... Yes, that included the pipe, spillway, toe drains and seeding.

 

[CM1995]

ALDOT bid a $32 million dollar "park" job under I20/59 in downtown Birmingham and the difference between low bid and second was $200K... We bid with the second bidder..

 

[Welder Dave]

Sometimes if 1 bid is quite a bit lower than the other bids they will question it and even disregard it. Is the contractor established and known, have they done this type of work before, what kind of equipment do they have, etc. I know a job at the landfill years ago required the contractor had to have machines no older than 1980. One of the D8K's was a 1974 and had to be replaced with a newer machine. Same machine but had to be newer.

 

[redneckracin]

How so?

A loaded tandem dump truck is a great compactor it's just slow compared to an 84" pad foot or smooth drum vibratory roller. Loaded 6x6's are great compactors as well. Keeping loaded trucks on top of the preceding fill lift speeds up compaction and helps the load on the compactor.

A friend of mine that is a geotechnical engineer prefers a proof roll with a loaded tandem over a nuke gage his words - "A loaded tandem doesn't lie, a nuke gauge will".

I am perfectly fine with a proof rolling with a loaded truck, the issue comes in with how consistent it is. There has to be alot of back and forth with the truck to get compaction. A sheepsfoot roller will do it faster and more consistent. Also, when you get close to the top of the dam, it's likely going to be too narrow to overlap the tire tracks enough to get everything tightened up. You can run a roller up and down a steeper slope than the truck will climb as well. Basically just a better tool for the job.

 

[DMiller]

Don't use a Vibra Pak, tends to bring the Moisture up, makes Soup.

 

[DMiller]

Skyking, we also have that "Yellow Sh!t" here, Clay pits segregate it from the main piles for use as Fill FOR FREE to haul off. Not useful for ANYTHING other than Fill material.

 

[Welder Dave]

Hopefully on the job in question the clay is a consistant type that's not too hard to work with.

 

[BackertheBiker]

There are tons of lakes in my area, as the ground is pretty prime for lake building. The material in the area I'm looking at - I'd say it's slightly sandy, somewhat rocky. Lot of sandstone in this area. I'll snag a pic of some of the dirt for you all if I get time, but I'm not concerned about the material I'm working with. It's not the slimy unmanageable clay you get in some areas. Compaction is something I certainly have to think about and figure out. Good input from everyone though, and some things I need to consider here.

 

[BackertheBiker]

I took another shot of the area the other night, as I have all the underbrush cleared now. But you still can’t really tell what’s going on here with all the trees still up.

I did some better measuring over the weekend too. 350’ was basically a guess on my part, but it turns out I’m really only looking at ~250’ long dam. It’s hard to judge with a bunch of trees in the way So, considerably less dirt than originally thought. Still leaning toward doing this myself though - for the experience as much as anything.. I’ll try to remember to make updates to this thread as I go

 

[MG84]

Stake out the dam, shoot some elevations and you should be able to calculate the compacted yardage fairly accurately. When I’m calculating a dam I break the profile of it down into various cubes/rectangles and triangles which makes the math easier and more accurate. Don’t forget to include the yardage to put in the core trench. Give us a good yardage estimate and we can nail down your expected time and production a little better.

If this is going to be a one man show a scraper is really the tool for the job (provided you have good dirt). Even something as small as a 5yd pull type scraper behind a decent sized farm tractor would handily out preform a 963 once you start to make longer pushes. Might be able to find and old but serviceable one for $5-7k and sell it when your done, borrow or rent a suitable tractor. Will also provide more compaction than a track loader.

If you are set on using the equipment you have I’d definitely try to find a dump truck you could hire as needed. Wouldn’t need it for all the dirt moving, but would really speed things up as you starting working further from the dam. Load the bucket of your backhoe and use it to wheel roll it in reasonable lifts. That will give you the compaction you need for a project like this, lots of ponds in the past were just pushed up with a dozer and had very little to no compaction in the dam and they held water (usually.) Compacting with any heavy wheeled equipment is fine for a one off job like this, no need to spend money to buy/rent a sheeps foot roller or pad foot compactor.

Good luck with your project and keep the pics and info coming.

 

[BackertheBiker]

Stake out the dam, shoot some elevations and you should be able to calculate the compacted yardage fairly accurately. When I’m calculating a dam I break the profile of it down into various cubes/rectangles and triangles which makes the math easier and more accurate. Don’t forget to include the yardage to put in the core trench. Give us a good yardage estimate and we can nail down your expected time and production a little better.

If this is going to be a one man show a scraper is really the tool for the job (provided you have good dirt). Even something as small as a 5yd pull type scraper behind a decent sized farm tractor would handily out preform a 963 once you start to make longer pushes. Might be able to find and old but serviceable one for $5-7k and sell it when your done, borrow or rent a suitable tractor. Will also provide more compaction than a track loader.

If you are set on using the equipment you have I’d definitely try to find a dump truck you could hire as needed. Wouldn’t need it for all the dirt moving, but would really speed things up as you starting working further from the dam. Load the bucket of your backhoe and use it to wheel roll it in reasonable lifts. That will give you the compaction you need for a project like this, lots of ponds in the past were just pushed up with a dozer and had very little to no compaction in the dam and they held water (usually.) Compacting with any heavy wheeled equipment is fine for a one off job like this, no need to spend money to buy/rent a sheeps foot roller or pad foot compactor.

Good luck with your project and keep the pics and info coming.

Thanks for that! I know most here swear you need a sheep’s foot, but I also know that most people building private dams in this area haven’t used one.. My plan was basically what you outlined - good to hear some agreeance there.

I’ll take a look around for a scraper. It would be easier for me to borrow and get a large tractor here, than it would be the dozer I have in mind. Excellent feedback - I appreciate that.

I drew the dam out in Google Sketchup, and came up with around 7k yards. I’m not worried about the time the keyway will take - I’ll do that with my backhoe, on my own time as time allows leading up to the dam. And the backhoe sips fuel comparatively - it’s a big day if I burn through 10 gallons. My concern is in the dozer / scraper work building the dam, how long that will take me, and how much fuel I’m going to pour into it. Whichever I use won’t be mine, so I’ll be on limited time with it. And I have a limited budget. So yes - an educated estimate on that would help me plan. We’re probably talking a mostly one-man show here, with the occasional friend stopping by to run the hoe while I'm in the dozer / scraper.

Thank you for the in-depth response!

 

[skyking1]

do not delay the keyway until you have to dig full depth with the backhoe. That is not productive. Do it as you raise up the dam.

 

[BackertheBiker]

do not delay the keyway until you have to dig full depth with the backhoe. That is not productive. Do it as you raise up the dam.

Not sure I follow? The keyway has to be dug and filled, and compacted first, from my understanding - before the dam is placed over the top of it..? My plan is to get topsoil off in the dam area, dig the keyway with the backhoe, fill it back in with good clay and compact. Finish the keyway first, before I start moving dirt for the dam.

Remember - 1 man show here, and the backhoe is here and it's mine. I can do keyway work before the dozer even arrives. I need to be ready to just move dirt as quick as possible once the dozer is here, and get the project finished while the weather is cooperative.

 

[bam1968]

Every dam that I have been involved with building the keyway is the most stressful part. Usually have a temp dam holding the water back while you hustle to get the muck out and dry dirt back in and compacted before the water goes over the temp dam. Your situation might be different.