CAT 963 - Right Machine?

[skyking1]

I would keep going with really good material on top of the keyway. That is what I meant. If you had some really impervious clay but not much of it, keep going up with it.

 

[skyking1]

Every dam that I have been involved with building the keyway is the most stressful part. Usually have a temp dam holding the water back while you hustle to get the muck out and dry dirt back in and compacted before the water goes over the temp dam. Your situation might be different.

On the Cowlitz falls dam, we were racing the river coming up and dozer diving off the haul road, and then cut a slot in it and poured a concrete core.
His dam should go in the dry season. I don see any water there at all.

 

[BackertheBiker]

I see. Yeah - most of the dirt out here is suitable clay. Won't be any problem sourcing good keyway / dam material..

I'm in a valley, with decent elevation fall at the dam. There's normally no water running, or no water at all in this area. It drains out fast. I don't think I'll need to build a temp dam or hold any water back in any way. I'll pick a dry week and take 3 or 4 days or longer to get the keyway in if I need to.

Anyway, I'm not concerned with time or fuel needs for the keyway. I'll figure that out.. As I've been saying - I'm trying to figure out dozer time & fuel for the dam. 7k yards of material pushed into a dam..

 

[MG84]

I’m not sure if it has cy/hr calculations for track loaders pushing or carrying dirt, but the Cat Performance Handbook would be a good place to start. For dozers it has charts giving an estimate of how many cy/hr you can move for each model, based on distance and a couple other factors. Should also have fuel burn rates if I recall correctly. See if you can find a pdf or hard copy of one of the older versions of the handbook with the models you are working with. Maybe some of the guys on here with experience with the 963 can tell you roughly what size dozer would equal the ‘blade capacity’ of that loader. I don’t have a ton of time running big track loaders, but I do know that you can push a good bit more than you can carry albeit at a slower pace. Not sure at what distance carrying 2yds is faster than pushing 4yds (just random #s) but I’m sure the track loader guys could tell you. If you start loading it on trucks it’s going to come down to cycle times and how much fluff you have to deal with.

I do have more experience with pull type scrapers and can give you some guidelines on estimating that if you decide to go that route.

 

[MG84]

Another thing, and you may have addressed this and I missed it, it the stand pipe/over flow. The way we do ponds, and that which is reccomended by NRCS, is to run a horizontal pipe through the dam and then have a vertical stand pipe which sets the water level. There is also an emergency spill way. You can run the horizontal pipe the full thickness of the dam, with a vertical Tee to connect the stand pipe. This way you have an open pipe at the lowest point of the dam to keep water flowing out during construction. You can then either cap it when you are ready to fill the pond or add a gate valve so you can drain the pond later if need be(although its hit or miss if it still works 20yr down the road.) You’ll need at least one or two anti-seep collars around this horizontal pipe. The pipes will need to be sized to the number of acres in your drainage basin, not necessarily the size of the pond. We’ve got one 4ac pond thats spring feed with very little acreage draining into it and the stand pipe is only 6”. Or you could have a little 1/2ac pond but with several hundred acres of drainage and a 4’ dia standpipe would barely be adequate. Charts are available from USDA and NRCS to figure this if you haven’t already.

 

[BackertheBiker]

Yes, thanks! I've done quite a bit of research for the drain pipe, but haven't fully decided what route I'll take. Using a bottom horizontal pipe with a riser carries a lot more cost, but does allow drainage.. I think I can get away with an 8" pipe in that configuration. I'm looking at a drainage basin of 10 fully wooded acres. Otherwise a 12" corrugated overflow running down inside the top of the dam. Much cheaper - can't ever fully drain with this, but easily replaceable / serviceable if ever needed. I think I have a handle on the options - just need to make my decision.

 

[BackertheBiker]

For anyone wondering, this is the current view of the project

Power steering hose busted under the fuel tank. Required removal of the fuel tank, as well as the steering column to get to it.. Gotta love burning a week of good weather on repairs!

 

[skyking1]

¨ Pride of Ownership¨

 

[Welder Dave]

I think a larger dozer like a D5 or bigger will keep boiling material when pushing where a track loader will hit its limit and won't be able to do as long of push. Probably most efficient doing short pushes and making piles to load in a dump truck. Digging bucket fulls and then carrying 7000yds. seems to me would take an awfully long of time and waste production and fuel. At least with a dump truck you could keep pushing material while waiting for the truck to come back for another load. 7000yds. even 3yds. at a time is still over 2300 trips and half the time is driving back with no production. Depending on the packing rate could be even more trips. Dump truck could carry 4 bucketfuls maybe a little more. Even with just 1 person loading and then driving the truck you'd have increased production over carrying 1 bucket at a time.

 

[DMiller]

963 will roll up around four yards heaped, as I loaded Clay here was Two reasonable buckets Forward, Two Rearward then a modest bucket midway on the bed of the Quad I ran, just where could see the crown of Clay load, that figured to around 44500-46000 load weight, Had some real days where got heavy handed and ended up close to 78K gross. Bed was listed as a 24 yard.

Figures around 25 yards moist heaped so around a heavy four yards per bucket full. Will lose some while tracking, is inevitable. Know for a Fact a D7E mid 1970s with a 10' Semi U will shove at least eight yards along.

 

[DMiller]

As to Overflow style drain, Nuke I worked at had Off Levee Drains, Standpipes of Concrete Manhole style where were Seconds, a Full 24" Concrete Bell and Spigot Concrete Pipe run under the Levee today could be replaced with Double Wall convoluted HDPE, less apt to slip or separate, Concreted in base of Concrete Manhole tower. Expensive but far more functional, also see that used in Runoff Drain Retention Basins. For farm Ponds here they use up Old Truck and tractor Tires, Drain pipe ran to a spot, El or Turn placed and then stack larger to smaller tires as go up, filling with Creek Rock as rises, with a Pipe in Center from that El or turn. Still buried beneath the Levee Key. Steel can be done as well but price again is unreasonable unless find Salvage in size wanted.

 

[Oxbow]

I am completely unfamiliar with soil conditions in Indiana, and permitting as well.

I did not read the entire thread closely, but I did not see mention of permits. Where I live this would require permitting with the state, and that permit would require building specifications along with a design before approval for any impoundment of live water. Also, once the impoundment height exceeds 12' the permit requirements escalate exponentially. Here, state permits as well as Army Corps permits would be required at a minimum, with possible Fish and Game and USFWS permits. This assumes that the water source is more than just run-off of surrounding property.

None of this may apply, but it would be good to verify prior to construction. If local contractors have given bids without mention of permits, than maybe nothing is required?

As far as design goes, it sounds like some research has been done, and 3 or 4 to 1 slopes were mentioned. In my experience from similar projects slopes should be 3:1 minimum on the upstream side, but can be 1:1 on the downstream side. That said, for maintenance and added security building the downstream side so that one can get on it with a dozer might be prudent. 3:1 slopes on both sides would probably be preferable. Having the knowledge and equipment to set the toe of slope locations as well as the ability to bring the slopes up correctly should be considered as well. There has been plenty of suggestions regarding the importance of proper uniform compaction, so no need to add to that other than to say this should be done with at least two machines. One to push up and lay out material, and another to process and compact the material at a minimum. In our part of the world a water truck is a necessity as well.

As far as fuel consumption goes, the Cat Handbook shows a low of 3.5 gallons per hour to a high of 7.5 gallons per hour, depending on work load. Given the intended use for this project, I suspect 6 gallons per hour will probably be fairly accurate. So as mentioned before, 60 gallons per 10 hour shift should be close.

A general rule of thumb for earthmoving: No method is less expensive than using a dozer up to 300' of push. There are many conditions and circumstances that can negate this rule of thumb, like type of material, footing, pushing level versus uphill, appropriate size of dozer, etc. If one has the use of a 963 for the operating cost alone versus renting a dozer, this would not apply either.

Anyway, to sum it all up, a 20' impoundment is a serious project as the consequences of the dam failure could be catastrophic. Also, I can't imagine a scenario where even the earthmoving and compaction portion alone could cost less than $3.00 per CY in place. Then add control structure and spillway costs and this would easily be a $50,000 or more project in my neck of the woods ( anybody priced pipe lately?).

I hope some of this helps!

 

[JaredV]

I've heard tell of the DNR, BLM, or Forest Service will split the costs of a pond if they can access it for firefighting like drafting water with a truck or dipping with a chopper. They may have opinions on how they want it done, however. That was also 15 years ago.

 

[BackertheBiker]

a serious project as the consequences of the dam failure could be catastrophic. Also, I can't imagine a scenario where even the earthmoving and compaction portion alone could cost less than $3.00 per CY in place. Then add control structure and spillway costs and this would easily be a $50,000 or more project in my neck of the

This is very helpful, thank you!

Soil conditions here are really about as good as it gets for pond building, and the area I'm working in is no exception. I did a little more soil exploration this weekend while I'm clearing trees, and it was all prime, loose but compactible clay. As I mentioned before, there's a pond around every corner here in southern Indiana, because the dirt is prime for it.

Pond Permits in Indiana start above 20' dam height - thus, the height for my dam. Below 20' no approval needed. I need a $20 construction permit to move the dirt in my county - that's all.

The fuel consumption numbers are very helpful - thank you! The full length of the pond will be ~500', but I should be able to source all the dam soil from much closer than that. I'm thinking the borrowed 963 is still my best ticket for the job here.. Still looking at scrapers - may end up using both



I appreciate all the input from everyone on overflow design. I am on a budget though, so it will likely be just a 12" double wall corregated pipe set at desired lake height and run just under the surface of the dam. This is the most cost-effective method, it's what I've seen on most ponds around here, and it's easily serviced. I won't be able to ever drain the pond with this, but I can find other ways for that if I ever need to.

 

[MG84]

As to the overflow, if you use a horizontal culvert instead of a vertical stand pipe there are a couple downfalls you need to be aware of. First, if you use a 12” culvert for example, the level of the pond has to rise 12” before full flow is achieved. With a standpipe full flow is achieved with only a 2-3” rise of the pond level. Be sure you have plenty of freeboard height on the dam and a good spill of emergency spillway (which you should have both regardless.) Second, erosion is a real problem with a culvert for an overflow. During heavy flow it creates a vortex near the bank washing the dirt away around it. Use plenty of rip rap around the pipe and make sure the downstream side goes all the way to the bottom of the dam.

There is a third option, which is to build a standpipe but closer to the finished height. In this setup you’d put a horizontal pipe in with an L and maybe 4-5’ of vertical pipe. The stand pipe may only be 5-10’ away from the shore in this scenario, but would still provide most of the benefits with much less cost. You could even use 12” double wall black culvert pipe if you could find an L.

 

[BackertheBiker]

As to the overflow, if you use a horizontal culvert instead of a vertical stand pipe there are a couple downfalls you need to be aware of. First, if you use a 12” culvert for example, the level of the pond has to rise 12” before full flow is achieved. With a standpipe full flow is achieved with only a 2-3” rise of the pond level. Be sure you have plenty of freeboard height on the dam and a good spill of emergency spillway (which you should have both regardless.) Second, erosion is a real problem with a culvert for an overflow. During heavy flow it creates a vortex near the bank washing the dirt away around it. Use plenty of rip rap around the pipe and make sure the downstream side goes all the way to the bottom of the dam.

There is a third option, which is to build a standpipe but closer to the finished height. In this setup you’d put a horizontal pipe in with an L and maybe 4-5’ of vertical pipe. The stand pipe may only be 5-10’ away from the shore in this scenario, but would still provide most of the benefits with much less cost. You could even use 12” double wall black culvert pipe if you could find an L.

Will double wall corrugated pipe be water tight enough at the connections, for an underwater connection? I guess I assumed it would not be, therefore didn’t consider vertical culvert pipe as an option. You can buy 90 degree fittings for it though - this may be a consideration..

I watched a video today though of a guy who broke a T in his 8” PVC pipe at the bottom of the dam while building, and didn’t know it. Pond would never fully fill up - ended up having to dig the overflow pipe back out. He had more problems than that - didn’t do his homework and wasn’t careful in what he was doing. But it really reinforced that I don’t want to dig a full 20’ high dam out to work on a drain pipe. I have plenty of creek stone for the outlet - pretty sure I’ll do horizontal double wall. And yeah - plenty of dam above pipe level, and an emergency spillway planned in.

 

[CM1995]

ADS makes a soil tight and water tight joint.

Submital package for a watertight joint.

https://assets.adspipe.com/m/4520cdffa033cf12/original/N-12-Water-Tight-per-ASTM-F2648-Submittal-Package.pdf?_gl=1*1yt9c95*_ga*MjA4Mzg0Mzc3OS4xNjkyMTAwODc0*_ga_1TPLC9D3R7*MTY5MjEwMDg3NS4xLjEuMTY5MjEwMTExNi4yMS4wLjA.

Never used a water tight joint as soil tight is all that is spec’d for storm drainage. I would also recommend HP pipe instead of N12. HP is the grey pipe and much stronger.

SaniTite HP Pipe | Gravity Flow Sanitary Sewer Pipe from ADS

SaniTite® HP dual wall and triple wall pipe by Advanced Drainage Systems is specifically engineered for the gravity flow sanitary sewer market.

www.adspipe.com

I would suggest a pre-cast OCS and use the ADS water tight gaskets. Also couple of concrete anti-seep collars along the way.

This type of ADS is only available at commercial pipe suppliers. Do not use the single wall pipe at HD or Tractor Supply.

 

[MG84]

Will double wall corrugated pipe be water tight enough at the connections, for an underwater connection? I guess I assumed it would not be, therefore didn’t consider vertical culvert pipe as an option. You can buy 90 degree fittings for it though - this may be a consideration..

.

The ones I’ve seen are not water tight enough to be submerged, but in that design they don’t need to be as the L is burried in about 3-4’ of dirt, often with some concrete poured around the connection itself. You can use the same design (shallow, close to shore standpipe) with PVC, we often use that setup when repairing ponds with a leak or some other problem. Usually fill the existing pipe with concrete and install a new standpipe closer to shore, then you don’t have to drain the pond completely or trench 20’ deep

 

[IceHole]

Cat was generally good at sizing fuel capacity for a full days work.

Yeesh. I have a ~100 gallon tank on my 977.

 

[DMiller]

Yeesh. I have a ~100 gallon tank on my 977.

Run it hard a day for 10-12 hours, see where the fuel level sits.