scraper questions

[RollOver Pete]

Thanks for sharing the great pics as usual !!!!!!

I had to smile when you said "there always someone messing around on a dirtspread" How true, the races were.

I have done a few that wouldn't have been considered to cool now days ,but at the time,seemed with in reason! Because of who i was working with and for. If you know what i mean!

:usa

Ah.....
the memories....

We had a way of making the job "fun".
Most of the stunts we pulled back then would get you fired today.

On push pulls, A having a good partner is the key to success.
Two people need to be able to think as one.
I was blessed with having a awesome partner as well as being a close friend.
Jim Francis has since retired, and I do miss running with him.
I have yet to find a push pull hand that was as easy to work with as him.
Almost like we could read each others minds.
My foreman at Yeager, Dudley Elswick once told me that he could just sit back and watch us for hours.
He said that the way we worked together was amazing....
As if there was a 60' piece of rope holding us together.
Yeah....we could make those machines sing!

A few pointers or "must haves" I'd like to share.

First...and by far the MOST important....
Ya gotta have a good ride!
By that I mean a good hitch and a seat that works the way it was designed to work.
Your body and health are a valuable thing.
Beating yourself to death will not make you a rich man.
It makes the boss a rich man.
You end up an being an old crippled has been who should have listened to the advise of others.

Living with a back injury as I have for the last 13 years really sucks!
My injury was a result of falling off of a transfer trailer while tarping my load.
It could have very well been caused by bouncing over a rock or getting slammed by your partner, but not in my case.
The two crushed disks and pinched nerves ended my scraper days.
Anything where I need to be twisted around looking back as in a scraper or skip loader while using the gannon is a big NO NO.
I can get by running loaders and dozer's even though it does get painful at times.
In production loading as I did in Baker, I just tell everyone up front at our first safety meeting that I'm not going to turn around and look behind me 1200
times a shift.
That's what mirrors are for.
People have no place being anywhere behind me so unless you want an accident to happen, stay far away from the back of my machine.
This includes foreman, supers, H2O truck drivers and dump truck drivers.
I always make myself 100% clear on this with everybody.
If they expect me to meet their production #'s, they need to make sure I'm comfortable when loading.
Watching out for someone who shouldn't be there in the first place wastes my time and the contractors money.

Back to push pulls....
You need to be able to communicate with your partner.
When I run the front, I decide where to dig and dump.
Hand signals are the key.
A thumbs down to my partner lets him know to set in and load first.
A fully opened apron lets my partner know that we are about to come to a stop.
Two hands drawn apart lets him know to single out and self load.
There are many different signals... Those were just some of the more common ones we used.

Good push pull hands will never leave their partner behind....no matter what!
The front will either slow so the rear can catch up or the rear will help push the front thru the fill or up a hill.

We (Jim and I) would always be the ones who dumped the shoulders or picked up the edges.
There was nothing that would give me a bigger rush than climbing up and straddling an edge that everyone else was afraid to get.
When hooked up with Jim, I was confident that he would stay hooked up to me If I fell off.
This way he could pull me back up If I hadn't already pulled him off.
When pulling Jim, he knew that I wouldn't back out of it if he started to fall off of an edge. I'd take him right to the limit and keep the coals pored to her.
Sure we would both slide off every now and then...
No biggie... Just steer down, open your apron a bit and use the front engine to keep you pointed the right direction.
You'll find the bottom sooner or later.

There were times when we'd single out on an edge and if i got hung up, Mauricio "The Mad Mexican" who ran a 10 would seize the opportunity to spin me around by my stinger and then push me off the slope down into a canyon.
At quitting time, most of us would hang out till dark having a (few) cold ones and cooking up some carne asada.
How we ever made it home' I'll never know

There was never a dull moment back in the Good Ol' Days!
Thats what makes those days, the jobs and the people I worked with so special to me.
Those Good Ol' Days are a thing of the past...and long gone.

 

[RollOver Pete]

Ya know how people have a way about making up names for fellow operators?
Mine was obviously RollOver Pete.
Saddam Hussein wearing the shades..
Thumper...... red jacket ...Jim Francis
Cheese wizz....behind Thumper
Hollywood..... red hat
Pink Fkoyd......white hat behind Hollywood

The truck pic is Peterbilt transfer I had loading flux in Bouse Az.
Thats the trailer I fell off of.

The two jacked up 657's are Pink Floyd running front and Candy Randy pushing.
They finally folded under pressure allowing Thumper and myself to once again SACK them.:falldownlaugh

 

[RollOver Pete]

 

[Ray Welsh]

Hi Rollover Pete, What are you building there? All that dirt being moved, and not one compactor to be seen!!

 

[mag6000]

Great stuff ROP! Always enjoy your posts and pics.

Here is a dumb question. What factors dictate how the equipment is parked at night? Am I right to assume they are parked a certain way in order to help the mechanics and/or the fuel trucks do their jobs?

Thanks

 

[RollOver Pete]

looks like the most perfect scraper setup i have ever seen,rolling hills,no rocks,everone wearing tshirts,no dust what a thing of beauty. plenty of petersons for the single engine guys, do you work on jobs like that all the time? for all those scrapers i think i only seen one blade.i ran a 937c for 8 years not a pushpull,run alot of 31,41,51cs and liked them all but the 37 was always my favorite before i die i wish i could run a 57.you said the b was your favorite,these last few years ive been runnibg newer equipment 37g,e,e2 even our d was new to me when i started,ive come to really like the series 2 e its still not a 57 but at least its not a 27. especially like climate control and tunes,just wandering what you thought of any of the newer scrapers?i could look at pictures like those all day, if your gonna move big dirt you gotta have big iron.

Every now and then I'll get sent out to a big dirt job.
McCoy, Sukit, ACI are some that I went out on in 2007.

The 657B was a much better ride than the E's.
The seats worked better and the trans hold would hold a gear until you let off of the lever.
The E's still shifted when the computer told them to.
Visibility seemed better on the B's
The E's had more power but they would beat the tar outa ya.

The newer scrapers are nice when they're new.
But there's too much plastic, electronics and other sissy stuff in them for my taste.
Given the choice between a 657B and a newer tractor,
I'd take the B any day!

Running an open cab isn't that bad.
You just dressed accordingly.
At the end of the day you looked like you had put in a full day!
And with the pusher fans and the leaky exhaust, it didn't get any better than that!
Ahhhh....
I love the smell of diesel fumes in the morning!

 

[RollOver Pete]

Hi Rollover Pete, What are you building there? All that dirt being moved, and not one compactor to be seen!!

That was a job we did for Edison.
They were going to move the high tension power lines.
Also, we extended Imperial Hwy up over the hill to Santiago Canyon Rd.
And finally we put in a huge sub devision.
I'm not sure how many homes were built?
But everything on top and to the west was part of the project.
There were some 824's there...
I think about 5 in all.
There were fills of over 300' and with all the 57's and 51's running a pattern, compaction was hardly a problem.

 

[Mass-X]

Ahhhhhh.......... the revered world of Californian scapers...... :notworthy

I've got an independently contracted mechanic working on my scraper fleet right now who's from California. He's worked for Ralph Mitzel, RenTrac, Signs & Pinnick, err, oops, I mean Screams & Panic, as well as the revered Sukut Construction Co.

I love listening to his stories of how those big California scrapers spreads operate.

What I just can't get over is how much those contractors seem to prefer those B series machines in California. He loves that old iron too.

I'll stick to me beloved G's any day.

Nice pictures RollOverPete. If I recall, didn't you say you're currently working for Sukut? Are they still married to their repowered 657B's or have they tried out any G's yet to see what I real push-pull is like?

 

[RollOver Pete]

Great stuff ROP! Always enjoy your posts and pics.

Here is a dumb question. What factors dictate how the equipment is parked at night? Am I right to assume they are parked a certain way in order to help the mechanics and/or the fuel trucks do their jobs?

Thanks

Yep...
Fuel tanks to the inside so the fuel tanker could drive down the line and take care of both sides.
If I remember right, there would be 2 delivery's a night.
I don't know how much fuel a T&T holds, but I'd hate to be the one paying the bills.

 

[RollOver Pete]

Ahhhhhh.......... the revered world of Californian scapers...... :notworthy

I've got an independently contracted mechanic working on my scraper fleet right now who's from California. He's worked for Ralph Mitzel, RenTrac, Signs & Pinnick, err, oops, I mean Screams & Panic, as well as the revered Sukut Construction Co.

I love listening to his stories of how those big California scrapers spreads operate.

What I just can't get over is how much those contractors seem to prefer those B series machines in California. He loves that old iron too.

I'll stick to me beloved G's any day.

Nice pictures RollOverPete. If I recall, didn't you say you're currently working for Sukut? Are they still married to their repowered 657B's or have they tried out any G's yet to see what I real push-pull is like?

Oh yeah....worked for Screams and Panic in Beaumont.
I guess Signs sold his shares and now its Pinnick Ink...
or Pink Ink....

I was on rental to Sukut earlier in the year in Oxnard.
I'm not sure if they have any G's but I have seen some of their B's over at Johnson Tractor in Riverside getting repowered 2 months ago.

 

[RollOver Pete]

why does every one park with their lips up?

To check fluids, cutting edges and let everyone know that the machine is running.
They also run the ejector forward.
A machine with its apron down is not running or down for repairs.

 

[mag6000]

Yep...
Fuel tanks to the inside so the fuel tanker could drive down the line and take care of both sides.
If I remember right, there would be 2 delivery's a night.
I don't know how much fuel a T&T holds, but I'd hate to be the one paying the bills.

Thanks.

I hope you don't mind some basic questions. I'm very interested in how dirt jobs like that Edison job are run with respect to day to day operations from an operators point of view.

What is the typical daily routine for an operator on a job like this?

How are operators assigned to a particular machine? Is it by experience? Company seniority?

What machine does the least experienced operator get? Which does the most experienced operator use?

Thanks again.

 

[Gavin84w]

Scrapers-what earthmoving is all about!!!

ROP would it be possible to document here for all of the scoop fans who are the big scraper fleet operators in California (or anywhere else in the US) and what they are running.From along way away downunder i have come across various bits of info from the net, forums etc on outfits like Sukut, Independent, Mietzel etc. but i am sure there must be others both still running and long gone. Recently got some info on Tutor-Saliba who seem to have had a big fleet of 666.

On the east coast of Australia Abigroup would be the premier scraper operator with a 40+ fleet of scoops comprising 637E/G, 651B/651E and recently acquired 4 657G. Leighton contractors have recently begun purchasing there beloved 630 series scrapers again,purchasing 4 31G and 2 37G after being out of dirt for about 10 years in New south wales. I remember when they had 24 631E running back in the early 90,s and SP505 was presented as the 100th 631 they had purchased in Australia at that time.

On the west coast there are some big scraper operators with Piacentini the biggest, http://www.piacentini.com.au/



Look forward to the replies.

 

[637slayer]

my favorite thing to do on my 51b was to drive by new people or other people on the ground especially gradechecker and pushcat hands lock it down in second and rap it up drive by so the fins on the front would blow right at them and try to blow their hats off, got a couple in my time.

 

[Mass-X]

If Pete doesn't mind, I can answer that question from my perspective. I've spent the last 9 years as a grading foreman/superintendent, with the majority of that time spent in charge of scrapers.

mag6000: "What is the typical daily routine for an operator on a job like this?"

Right at start of shift on Monday there's a 30 minute safety meeting. Everyone on site attends and signs the safety sheet. It really is important to pay attention, and well conducted safety meetings will outline the operators on any risks/problems/accidents involved, how the previous week ran concerning budget, and what specific tasks need to be completed this week to meet schedule (let the operators know that a certain cut MUST be done by end of shift Tuesday, etc).

I hate it when foreman's/superintendents try to keep operators in the dark. I strongly feel the operators should know they're only moving dirt at a 7% profit while the bid was set up for 24% as an example. They should know that a certain cut/fill didn't get finished on schedule, etc. I feel if you let them know what's going on on the job, more operators are inclined to actually care about the work they're doing.

Anyway, back to subject. After the Monday morning safety meeting with the Superintendent and/or Safety Coordinator, the operators will meet with their foreman who will tell them to get on their machine and pick up where they left off, or to change to a different cut/fill, etc.

The other days of the week will begin with all the operators meeting their foreman at the line-up for a 10 minute toolbox talk (safety reminder, and necessary updates, production from the previous day, etc) and then get to work.

"How are operators assigned to a particular machine? Is it by experience? Company seniority?"

Skill is important. The best scraper hands will typically get the best scrapers, best dozer hands get the best dozers, etc.

Some of the guys who've worked for me dislike me for that. Some guys may have been there for 7 years, so they feel entitled to the best scraper, but they’ve got a slow pace. While the newer kid who’s been running for 2 years runs hard and takes care of his machine. I have no problem taking the older guy out of his machine and replacing him with the faster guy.

In the end it all comes down to the bottom line.

Overall, your skill level will be matched to the machine you run. As you gain skill and knowledge, the opportunities to move up will present themselves.

What machine does the least experienced operator get?

The water pulls typically. I think it’s best to put the guys new to big dirt jobs there, let them listen to the job over the radio each day. Let them learn how these big jobs work, how to stay out of the way, but stay on top of their tasks, etc. It really helps them to have that feeling for big dirt jobs when they get placed on a different machine.

Which does the most experienced operator use?

The machine equipped with the GPS. Typically the best operators will run what they're most skilled at. Best push-pull guys will pick their preferred partner and run the best scraper. Best dozer hand will be the finish hand in the D6 or D8 doing the finish slope work. Best blade hand will be finishing the pads/road grades while the inexperienced guy works the haul roads/fill.

For me, the new guy will go on the water pull, and then to the compactor, then to scraper, then dozer, then blade. Obviously, developing a skill or preference for something particular along the way (GPS, grade checking, good on slopes with dozer, etc) may change that progression.

Keep in mind my experience is 95% with push-pull scrapers. Crews that run singles often start their guys on one of the singles and just say follow the guy ahead of you.

I'm accustomed to hour-by-hour scheduling and monitoring of profit/loss/progress on the jobs I've worked on, so putting the new guy on a production oriented machine was usually reserved until he'd earned his wings on the water pull or non-GPS equipped compactor. Then he could get the opportunity to dive into the race, have the cut cops monitor his load times, have the foreman screaming at him to go faster, dive off the bank regardless of dozer prepping the cut, etc.

I love big dirt jobs.:drinkup

 

[RollOver Pete]

Couldn't have said it better myself.
Thanks...:notworthy

 

[mag6000]

Mass-X, thanks a bunch for your insights. I find this thread fascinating. For all the years that I've been observing these big scraper jobs, I've always wanted to know what the inner workings of the crew were like.

 

[alan627b]

I'm really enjoying the big dirt pics, it's what I saw on vacation out there 2 years ago. The scale of the projects floored me. A 657 is one impressive piece of machinery!
I work for an outfit here in Omaha, Nebraska. We've got 9 631D's (hate them!) a few 613's, and my weapon of choice, the 627B. We have 25 to 30 of our fleet of 40 running at any given time. One of the conditions of using "old iron" I guess. The mechanics like them because of their simplicity and minimum of electronics, compared to the newer models. I assume they'll stick with them until parts availability becomes a problem.
Regulations requiring repowers haven't made their way here.....yet.
As far as running around with the lip open, unless your are entering the cut...I see it as a bad habit, you could encounter overhead obstructions, it raises the machines center of gravity,as does "high panning", it just plain looks stupid...and on our jobs, if a mechanic sees you doing it, you'll catch hell for it. Having the lip open just beats the hell out of the linkages and bushings, and places undue load on the seals in the lift cylinder.
Running back to the cut with the ejector forward, and the ram extended, beats the seals out of that cylinder. And all sorts of bad things can happen, if you forget to put the gate back, start loading, and a big clod falls over the back and nails a hose or an electrical connnection...
As Mass X might agree, that's one way to get demoted back to the water wagon or worse, a tractor with a pull roller...ZZZZZZ.
We had a job where a guy got a 23 yard cube in the bowl (!) and in the process tore off almost all the hoses and electrical connections passing over the gooseneck to the draft arms. John, our mechanic, handed the "operator" a shovel, and told him shovel it out, or he was fired. I'll bet he thought twice before power stuffing another 27.
Good thread, keep it going!
alan627b

 

[637slayer]

me too more pics please,as soon as i can figure out how to scan my pictures then post them ill do it.

 

[Gavin84w]

Mass X, from all the big dirt jobs you have been around is there some pics to go with your stories!! Sounds like you have had some good operators and equipment at your disposal, would you be able to share some numbers and sites etc???