Case 1450 suction filter?

[KevinArmentrout]

Hi Everyone,

Just joined the forum today. This is my first piece of heavy equipment so please b kind!

I bought this 1983 1450 loader about 6 mos ago. The seller told me that after it warms up a while it takes a second or two to go into gear. I got a great deal, so I bought it. it's worth just as much scrap!
So basically what happens is after about an hour or so I will have to start tapping the gas to get it into gear. You can hear it squeal a little when going into gear. All of the temperature gauges are operating and normal. The converter temp is not even a quarter of the way in the green.
Someone suggested that it could be something as simple as a clogged screen? Would this be the suction filter or charging pump? Do I need to drop the belly pan to get to this? I checked the fluid levels both in the hydraulic tank (operator cab) and in the big breather dipstick on the passenger side under the floorboard access door. Both have fresh fluids and are both at the full line.

I love this old power shift and want to get it to the way it should be running. It's a beast of a machine and don't want to run it when I could fix a small problem that could inadvertently lead to a bigger problem.

I would love to hear thoughts/suggestions as I am not heavy equipment savvy yet and would love to learn from some of the professionals on here! Thanks everyone

 

[AllDodge]

Welcome to the forum, and I not a case guy but my thought could be a clogged filter or more likely the trans needs resealed. Parts expand with heat and oil thins. My first task when getting any new, used equipment is change all the fluids and filters. This gives me a starting point to rule out possibilities later. While changing filters you may see something which will give you the clue of what the real issues is. Good luck

 

[KevinArmentrout]

Thanks AllDodge. That is great advice. When I bought the loader the owner serviced the loader himself changing fluids and visible filters that I could see without taking off any guards. He said replaced them with wix filters. I didn't know this guy from Adam, but I took his word for it. I checked the engine oil dipstick and the oil was black as night. Seemed odd that it was and I asked him about it and he got offended saying I called him a liar! Man, I didn't mean anything by it I swear, It seems with my tractor its the same as well. Just asking was all. But I don't know if he actually went to the extra trouble to change any of the other filters. I saw two new pretty white filters and the glass bowl/strainer for the fuel was changed. I just ordered 3 filters from wix even though I don't know if they have been changed or not. He was up front about the slipping into gear though.

Wix 51097 (Transmission Filter)
Wix 51092 (Tank)
Wix 51513 (Reservoir)

Dumb question - What is the difference between a tank and a reservoir?

 

[AllDodge]

Dumb question - What is the difference between a tank and a reservoir?

In my opinion it's all about perspective, a fuel tank gets filled and then the contents gest used up and refilled. A reservior hold it's contents and gets reused again and again, like the hydraulic reservior, but I call them all tanks. Only thing I think of as a reservior is what I usually go boating, but then again also call it a lake.

As for someone taking offence at you calling out the black oil and also mentioning the slippage. I see the slippage issue is something you would find on your own so he wants to look like someone not hiding anything. As for the black oil offence, that would make me think he is hiding something and doesn't want you to ask to many questions and look to hard.

I bought my track loader from a farmer which told me he just finished digging a big hole with it. Not knowing anything about heavy equipment yet I bought it untried. When trying to load it on the truck the first time we couldn't get it to go in reverse. Managed to get it in with a crow bar, and found other issues after I got it home. Buying equipment I now treat like a car sales men, if there lips are moving their lying until proven otherwise.

 

[KevinArmentrout]

Sounds like me! I usually trust everyone until they give me a reason not to. But in the future purchases that require a loan! I will have to be a bit more cautious. I absolutley love the power of this machine though. I gave it about two hours tonight until she started to slip and then called it quits. Found a bunch of gravel on a hillside next to my pond and have been digging bank run. The part that really sucks is I'm working with my buddy that has a dump truck and when the "vdo" doesnt get enough fluid or something it's like it goes out of gear. I have to pump the gas pedal to get it gear and when your two inches away dumping a load into the truck it makes my arse pucker! Worried it will engage and launch into his truck. I do have the manuals for this thing that he gave me and took the floor boards out today to locate the filters.
I found the transmission filter on the drivers side and it looks like I have to drop the belly pan to get to the suction screen. As soon as my filters come in I'll give her a shot. The other thing it could be it seems is the charging pump or the converter. All temps stay in the cool zone and never overheats. My bet is either the clogged filter or the charging pump. When I pump the gas pedal at higher rpm's, the VDO engages. Could that be due to more fluid getting pumped or "forced" to the converter? I really wish I had the knowledge and equipment to test the flow rate and pressure.

 

[alrman]

Welcome to HEF!
Does sound like a classic symptom of either a tired pump or convertor......
Do any of the pressure gauges work on the machine?
Does the machine drive engage straight away when cold?
Is the hesitation when hot happen in REV & FWD?
It will be a good idea to check the suction screen & clean it out.
Check to see if there are any oil leaks in the suction lines between the charge pump, the suction screen & the transmission - these can cause hesitation also.
Not much more you can do more than this without testing equipment......You will need to check some pressures, at least to try to sort this.

 

[KevinArmentrout]

Thanks alrman!

Welcome to HEF!
Does sound like a classic symptom of either a tired pump or convertor......
Do any of the pressure gauges work on the machine?
Does the machine drive engage straight away when cold?
Is the hesitation when hot happen in REV & FWD?
It will be a good idea to check the suction screen & clean it out.
Check to see if there are any oil leaks in the suction lines between the charge pump, the suction screen & the transmission - these can cause hesitation also.
Not much more you can do more than this without testing equipment......You will need to check some pressures, at least to try to sort this.

Yes the pressure gauges work and temp gauges. When it's cold it goes into forward and reverse in high and low ranges almost immediately. As time goes on and it warms up I put it in gear and the vdo gauge looks dead. I hit the gas a couple times and it will squeal for a quick second and start moving. After a longer period of time the vdo gauge will drop to nothing unless I get the rpms back up and will squeal and start moving. I was looking at the book and it said I have to drop the belly pan to get to the suction screen and drain the transmission fluid. I hate to drain all that fluid until my new filters come in but I don't want to mess the machine up further. Thank you for your advise. I looked up the charging pump and converter. Pump is $1000 and converter is $4500! Ouch! Thanks again I'll keep this thread updated as soon as I dive into it. Thanks so far for you guys help

 

[sheepfoot]

Trans suction screen

You should pull it up on some rail road timbers, The trans holds around 15 gallons so have (4) 5 gal buckets with the lids off and ready to catch some oil. I would drop the 2nd and 3rd pans from the rear to gain access. The screen is a wash out screen, you need to catch the contents in a different pan so you can see what is in it. You should install a new o ring on the filter housing, check the hoses that are between tubing sections of the trans sump, filter base, and tube that goes to the charge pump. Hose should be inspected inside and out, for softness and separation, hose clamp should be tight and not striped, o rings under the nut and washer connections should be checked/replaced and tight when system is put back together.
You did not say if the pressure gauge on the dash showed a drop and increase in pressure when shifting from F to R when it acts up, or if the gauge stayed in the no pressure until you rev it up and gauge pressure came back, if you are using the brakes to turn the machine or doing a power turn or counter rotation. Are you running the machine in low range or high range, low range is 1st and 3rd, high is 2nd and 4th. You will need to pick up at least a 500psi gauge, and a six foot hose with one end 1/8 pipe thread, the other end 1/4" and a double female 1/4 to hook your gauge up to get some pressure checks.
The one issue other that charge pump pressure and flow is the modulator valve, there is a linkage that runs from the valve that trips the oil supply to allow a soft shift, if that mod valve is sticking it could be causing some of your issues along with worn linkage pins and clevises not allowing full detent of the spools in the control valve. The first mod valves had to be shimmed with a special service tool to get the correct setting, the later had a adjusting nut. The control valve is located under the battery box, You would have to remove the center panel at the rear between the fuel and hyd tank, remove the batteries, then remove the plate the batteries sit on. In the top of the valve (Center) you will see a fitting with a hose that runs to the pressure gauge on the dash, there is a small taper screen that can also get trash in it causing some issues, on the side facing the front there is a small fitting that screws into the valve, it has a hole in it no bigger than a ball in the end of a ball point pen that can get a little sliver of trash in it and stop you dead in your tracks. Most of these machines have had the gaskets replaced several times in the control valve if not upgraded to a new valve. In order to test the trans like shown in your service manual with the flow rater, three shut off valves and pipes, fittings and hoses, your parking brake (must work) and you must follow the steps, the machine can take off, cause property damage, and get you hurt. It is the only true way to test the system. You may need to remove the rear counter weight down the road, I would find two 1" bolts around 14" long grade 8 and cut the hex head off them for dowels when removing and installing the weight, easy job with a 6000# crane on a service truck, or forklift, just a heads up incase you get to that point down the road.

 

[alrman]

If the pressure is dropping off that much with temp, it's not good.
This squealing you are hearing, can you isolate where it is coming from, up high in the transmission, - control valve maybe?

 

[KevinArmentrout]

Thanks sheepsfoot!

You should pull it up on some rail road timbers, The trans holds around 15 gallons so have (4) 5 gal buckets with the lids off and ready to catch some oil. I would drop the 2nd and 3rd pans from the rear to gain access. The screen is a wash out screen, you need to catch the contents in a different pan so you can see what is in it. You should install a new o ring on the filter housing, check the hoses that are between tubing sections of the trans sump, filter base, and tube that goes to the charge pump. Hose should be inspected inside and out, for softness and separation, hose clamp should be tight and not striped, o rings under the nut and washer connections should be checked/replaced and tight when system is put back together.
You did not say if the pressure gauge on the dash showed a drop and increase in pressure when shifting from F to R when it acts up, or if the gauge stayed in the no pressure until you rev it up and gauge pressure came back, if you are using the brakes to turn the machine or doing a power turn or counter rotation. Are you running the machine in low range or high range, low range is 1st and 3rd, high is 2nd and 4th. You will need to pick up at least a 500psi gauge, and a six foot hose with one end 1/8 pipe thread, the other end 1/4" and a double female 1/4 to hook your gauge up to get some pressure checks.
The one issue other that charge pump pressure and flow is the modulator valve, there is a linkage that runs from the valve that trips the oil supply to allow a soft shift, if that mod valve is sticking it could be causing some of your issues along with worn linkage pins and clevises not allowing full detent of the spools in the control valve. The first mod valves had to be shimmed with a special service tool to get the correct setting, the later had a adjusting nut. The control valve is located under the battery box, You would have to remove the center panel at the rear between the fuel and hyd tank, remove the batteries, then remove the plate the batteries sit on. In the top of the valve (Center) you will see a fitting with a hose that runs to the pressure gauge on the dash, there is a small taper screen that can also get trash in it causing some issues, on the side facing the front there is a small fitting that screws into the valve, it has a hole in it no bigger than a ball in the end of a ball point pen that can get a little sliver of trash in it and stop you dead in your tracks. Most of these machines have had the gaskets replaced several times in the control valve if not upgraded to a new valve. In order to test the trans like shown in your service manual with the flow rater, three shut off valves and pipes, fittings and hoses, your parking brake (must work) and you must follow the steps, the machine can take off, cause property damage, and get you hurt. It is the only true way to test the system. You may need to remove the rear counter weight down the road, I would find two 1" bolts around 14" long grade 8 and cut the hex head off them for dowels when removing and installing the weight, easy job with a 6000# crane on a service truck, or forklift, just a heads up incase you get to that point down the road.

Wow, it's amazing how helpful you guys have been to someone you don't even know. I want to thank you in advance for all you help in diagnosing this problem. You guys are truly top notch and have a wealth of knowledge.

When shifting from forward to reverse the vdo gauge drops to nothing for a second and then engages. When it's cold it's pretty much right away. After about 2hrs depending on how hard I'm pushing it sometimes It will not engage at all until I give it some throttle. I think the first approach will be the cheapest. Filters should be here Tuesday. I bought the trans filter, tank filter and reservoir. I will inspect all the lines when I have the belly pans off and replace if necessary. If something is leaking the pans do a great job holding the fluid cause its dry underneath. Also wanted to add after it warms up and it's slipping, if I'm sitting still with no rpms the vdo pressure drops to nothing. i will try and grab a pic or two today. it will disengage and I will have to pump the accelerator pedal again. Really sucks trying to load a dump truck on a hill!

 

[KevinArmentrout]

Still waiting on filters.. hopefully they will be here today. I did notice another thing on the loader. When I opened up the access panel door on the floor, I shined a light down and noticed a collar or bushing looks like its worn on the driveshaft.

 

[KevinArmentrout]

Hey Guys,

Started taking the belly pans off yesterday. I've been tied up running the dozer rebuilding our driveway. My buddy brought his 315 trackhoe over and making short work of digging up some bank run. We ran 38 trucks yesterday and 23 trucks the day before. Hopefully I'll be able to get to the loader this week. Suppose to be like 100 degrees today. Fun, fun

 

[KevinArmentrout]

ok heres the update. I decided yesterday that I had time to tackle this job. Well, after taking the rest of the pans off yesterday. I had (4) 5 gallon buckets underneath and unscrewed the suction filter housing. out came the fluid. To my surprise there was nothing inside the housing. WTH! The person before me took the filter out and left it out. I took the housing over to a separate bucket and emptied it. There was some crud in it but felt like it was almost a mute point to even check! So while that was draining, I said what the hell and took the 10 or so bolts out of the hydro tank up top to replace those filters inside as well. I felt around inside and found a t-bar that unscrewed one of the filters. When I pulled that up from the hydro lagoon, the filter looked like a package of crescent rolls when you twist them and they pop. The whole side was blown out. Next, I took the panel off to access the main drain plug, since I figured I would just drain the whole tank, cause theres probably an opossum skeleton or something crazy in there. Well, the 3/4" plug was fun to get to. I rigged up a big funnel with a 1" aquarium hose to it thinking I would funnel it down to a 5 gallon bucket. WRONG! It was like someone rigged up some c-4 on the hoover damn. Out she came all over the place, my cell phone, my coke and tools. Oozing it's way to my little garden I planted, I hopped on my tractor with the little backhoe and trenched a drain away from my poor tomato plants. Uh... What a fun day.

So now I have to order a $100+ filter, but my question is:

If this "tool" before me didn't put a filter in there, I feel like there would be trash in the pump. how would I flush the charging pump? Or when I pulled the filter housing off, would it drain from the pump as well as the transmission? kind of semi-flushing it?
Also I purchased the "Shield" Multi-Trac Tractor Hydraulic Fluid the the main reservoir, can I use the same stuff for the transmission when I fill it? I read in the book, and of course they say to use the CASE fluid.

 

[alrman]

Live & learn Kevin!
Sounds like you are not having any fun at all.......
If the screen has been left out - & who knows for how long? ...... any trash / metal the transmission has made has gone through the the charge pump. I would be removing it & doing an autopsy on it while the oil is out. I wouldn't expect it to look too healthy.
Hope it's not too late....

 

[KevinArmentrout]

No fun at all Alrman! I don't think there's anything I can do if I take the pump off except replace the whole pump. If you look on casece the gears inside the charging pump can't b sold seperate of course. I can get a pump for around $900 but would hate to spend that kind of loot if it wasn't the pump. I just can't believe people. Why would someone do that! Maybe the problem started happening and they thought it was lack of flow to the converter and thought by taking the filter out it would help? Who knows. My buddy said he's got a pressure gage and I can try to test. I cleaned the undercarriage out today and wiped down hoses etc. when I get the new filter I'm gonna leave belly pans off and just ride around and see if I can pinpoint t exactly where it is

 

[KevinArmentrout]

Should I take the pump apart and try to clean? I'm still wet behind the ears on this stuff. I'm definitely open to suggestions. I guess I need some information on testing the pump.


If I can get my hands on a pressure gauge, where do I hook up to? and how do I test?. I don't recall this in the books that I have but I could be wrong. I wish someone had a pump I could try somewhere. I can't afford a $900 assumption right now. I'm open to all suggestions.....

 

[KevinArmentrout]

Hey Sheepfoot,

If I can't get my buddy's pressure gauge, do you have a pic of one that is built so I can mimic the same build? What brand gauges?

Something like this?

 

[DMiller]

Problem with most gear positive displacement pumps is as they starve for fluid they cook themselves for lack of lube. Easy to add .004-.010" clearances and not move enough oil after. I had to replace the steering supply pump on my Allis, $1300 and change , will fit inside a standard coffee can with the lid on and room for more stuff, NOT rebuildable. Previous owner had failed to keep the filters and strainers clean, ate itself after a few days operation.
Just pulled a transmission swap from a dead donor tractor for mine, both units the trans hydraulic supply pump had a cracked mounting ear(same position on both probably a weak point), $350 for small pieces and back in business.

 

[KevinArmentrout]

Well I drained the last of the fluids from the transmission drain plug and then slid on down to the torq converter. I saw what looked like the drain plug and unscrewed the plug. Yeah two stout springs popped out along with the fluid. It took every ounce of strength to screw that thing back in. Live and learn. So reading the book I came across section 6013 for the transmission and it refers to section 6012. To my surprise there was no 6012. I guess the previous owner took it out when he was probably diagnosing this same problem. I believe 6012 is the section on how to test the charge pump. Does anyone have a copy of this section?

 

[KevinArmentrout]

Yeah DMiller. That little pump is a costly one! It amazes me that you can't get aftermarket gears etc for rebuilding the pump. I guess there's not enough demand